Costs...

[Flavio Galtieri]

I agree with FFmygale that the simplest way to reduce costs is to limit the number of new sets of tyres each competitor can use per season. Two per meeting entered or similar would sound about right and would also pretty much halve the cost of being on competitive rubber over the year.

The only people disadvantaged by such a move would be those for whom tyre expenditure isn't an issue, which is surely the object of the exercise of reducing costs whilst encouraging more entries per round.

[Walshy]

Blah Blah Blah.

Heard it all before.

This tyre arguement was raised a couple of years ago and many people (and plenty that post on here) scoffed at the idea of limiting the number of tyres we use.

I spearheaded trying to get the number of sets per year capped and of all people, it was actually AVON that agreed with me!!!!!!!!

Fair play to them. I sat down and discussed it with them and they said that in all the other Championships that they supply tyres that impose a limit, they actually sell more tyres.

If you limited every competitor to 3 sets of new tyres per year (easily policed by serial number), then everyone competing would buy three sets. As it is at the moment, most clubbies run on one to 2 sets and 3 or 4 drivers might by 5+ for a year.

Wet races? That's down to you! Keep one set for wet (just in case) and be clever with the other 8. Mix and Match. "Tyre Management"

If you get a puncture, you can have a replacement if it can't be repaired (and yes, a puncture repair on a race tyre works as efficiently as it does on a road tyre).

So yes, a lot of the drivers were in favour and a lot wasn't. The tyre manufacturer was in favour. Great. But the next step was to take it to the BRSCC and a regulation change was required. This is where it ground to a halt. I put it to the Club and never heard anything back.

AS I haven't been active for the last 2 years and nobody else seemed bothered (typical apathy), I never persued it, but if everyone agreed to it, then we could make it happen for next year. I'll start a new Thread and put a poll on it.

Have your say!

[Mak]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

Grids have been low in the M/S all year as far as I can see. The recent National round at Pembrey was cancelled I believe as they only had 4 (!) entries. As far as I can see, that meant no one apart from dedicated National drivers entered.

Has to be cost, after all, if it was cheap, everyone would do it as everyone likes a bargain.

Having said that, look at the massive grids of Caterhams and even the Mazda mx5 series have large grids. There were lots of caterhams testing at Donny yesterday, but no Mazdas, wonder why?

So somethings wrong with the formula itself maybe? Maybe its not costs?

But clearly something needs to be done to get grids up and the level of competition higher.

And I'm sorry, but if many years ago it was possible to do a whole season on 3 tyres and win, then they were very lucky. All it needed was a guy to chuck a few quid more at it and they would have either had to spend more loot themselves or be a Senna equivalent.

Years ago, (late 60's) my dad used to compete in Autocross with some success. All of a sudden, someone bought a set of 'knobblies'. So soon everyone had to run knobblies. Then it was LSD's. And so on and so on.

Although FF1600 is regulated (sort of) you have to spend a certain amount of money to be as fast as the fastest. Its a fact of life. But as the bar is raised, less and less people are able to afford it, so grids drop. Its all very well racing the 'same' car, but nobody wants to appear to be a plodder, so they go and play somewhere else.

Sorry to ramble on a bit, but I was in the groove as it were, lol

Sorry Kartingdad you are wrong.. Pre 87 the tyres used did not loose any time from brand new to completely worn out... They were a very hard compound, probably more like a road tyre, and lasted.. Included in the 3 sets mentioned for the season I used was a test day for each meeting! There were people spending a lot more, but they still were not faster.... Dunlops were the tyres, but I think Esso also had a ff tyre. Do we really need a race specific tyre? Could the series not just adopt an appropriate road tyre for use. Policing tyre no.s just complicates things and can actually increase costs as you need extra rims for testing, whilst keeping race sets aside. In club level FF1600 people compete for fun, if you have loads to spend you do a professional series. I disagree that you NEED to be spending a great deal to be competetive.. Currently you have to spend a lot just to compete..Get the basic (neccessary) costs under control then it your choise if you want to spend more!

[itsonlyme]

it doesn't matter what happens, as has been said in previous posts........... the guys that can afford a new set of tyres will still buy em, the guys that can afford to buy a good engine will buy one or two or three, the guys that can afford trick gear ratios that last 1 or 2 races before throwing them away will still buy em, the guys that can afford a big fancy all singing an dancing truck will still buy one, the guys that can afford to test on a day of the week that ends in a 'Y' will still test.
Its the same in football, look at chelsea, man city and that other manchester based team with the cockney following, they will just buy the best players because they can afford to - has anyone tried to limit the value of players? The amount of football teams going bust is increasing because of stupid transfer prices, the amount of people entering race meetings is reducing due to AVON and the BRSCC increasing prices (ok mr brown and his government arent helping much either). The BRSCC and AVON know that the dedicated racers will still race and when entries drop even more the prices will go up to compensate this, then entries will fall even more then we can all kiss goodbye to club racing. The sooner JEB gets his championships going the sooner club racing can get back on its feet and DIZ can look after the NW side of JEB's new championships and come on Pikey whats happening with the 750MC championship you suggested?

[SCOBER11]

Before we all attack the front runners who spend loads,have loads of spare engines etc we must remember that there are plenty of FF1600 drivers who couldn'nt win a race if we only had one set of tyres per year . They just have no pace. The WHT at the end of the year will have loads of them in it.

In Southern Ireland we have run with limited sets of tyres for a number of seasons now and it has worked and its easy to police. In Northern Ireland they have introduced a tyre limit for the first time this year.

[itsonlyme]

I am not attacking the front runners who spend loads, as there are plenty of tail end charlies that spend loads too, if not more in some cases! The majority of club racers do it because they enjoy it, and dont care that they never make the top 10 - the same guys with no pace at the WHT!

This thread was started to try help reduce costs - and not for the first time either - but nothing ever gets done as driftwood is finding out and walshy found out a few years ago.

The only solution which has been mentioned in this thread and previous related threads is to vote with your feet and stay away, but where else can you race?..........exactly u cant, so u enter a brscc race meeting and buy a new set of avons, so who wins again?

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by itsonlyme

I am not attacking the front runners who spend loads, as there are plenty of tail end charlies that spend loads too, if not more in some cases! The majority of club racers do it because they enjoy it, and dont care that they never make the top 10 - the same guys with no pace at the WHT!

This thread was started to try help reduce costs - and not for the first time either - but nothing ever gets done as driftwood is finding out and walshy found out a few years ago.

The only solution which has been mentioned in this thread and previous related threads is to vote with your feet and stay away, but where else can you race?..........exactly u cant, so u enter a brscc race meeting and buy a new set of avons, so who wins again?

Just because someone is running at the front you naturally assume they have to be spending loads? Well I can think of one driver, still with a novice plate on his car, who has run at the front of every race he has entered so far and definately does not have loads to spend. He certainly hasn't had new tyres at every meeting and has done no testing outside of the race meetings themselves. Yes he is spending what is a lot of money for him because motor racing is expensive;£340 for an entry plus £210 for a Friday test plus travel etc but this is only what everyone else is spending. Big trucks don't win races otherwise everyone who ran out of one would be winning too!

Unfortunately there is really no such thing as cheap motorsport. Having been involved in karting for almost a decade I can think of many comptitors, still there, spending annual budgets of over £100k. I know how frustrating it is, believe me. I've seen plenty of drivers go a long way with little talent but plenty of money while those who have beaten them but have no money are prevented from progressing. It's a cruel sport like that but no one forces us to participate in it. Either you try to do the best job you can with the resources you have available or walk away and do something else with your life.........FF1600 is still a great place to race and I'd rather we did 6 meetings there than a dozen meetings in a cheaper category. Otherwise we'd go & try FVee or Jedi or Locost......

[itsonlyme]

i originally meant racers in general would spend loads, then it got twisted so i defended something i hadnt said and then the bandwagon drove past.........

back to topic............

[Flavio Galtieri]

Well don't worry chaps, problem is solved by a cunning plan hatched by the new leaseholder of Donington Park which I'm sure could be replicated elsewhere, JP take note.

First, you enter a typical M/S round of the Championship, prep the car as usual and trailer her 170 miles to the nearest Budget Hotel and enjoy a nice dinner with the rest of your crew.

Then in the morning you have a pleasant breakfast, sign on, get the car scrutted and fit those new Avons you've just purchased.

Now the clever bit.

Because the leaseholder has built a tunnel under the circuit using the cheapest materials available with an architect just out of a work experience placement in the Gobi Desert, a little of good old British liquid sunshine is enough to cause that whole part of the track to become flooded, collapse and thus allow the C ot C no option but to cancel the meeting forthwith on safety grounds.

And you arrive home with absolutely no wear on those sparkling new Avons!!

[driftwood]

cant believe Tom leased his track to a bunch of fikwits to destroy it and UK motorsport -mind you bernie was a helping hand in it all and I dont believe Tom did it for the money!

[kartingdad]

They said the cancellation was 'out of their control'. Clearly it was as apparently the works around the tunnel have been an area of concern for months now.

I understand the MSA give the track a licence on a weekly basis only.

I was told by an official yesterday that the recent touring car meeting was authorised at the last minute by Alan Gow, head of the MSA.

Oh, and he runs the touring car series...........


It was a pity it was all cancelled - there were hundreds of drivers with even more team members who had spent between them £Xxxxxxx to be there. What a wast of everyones money, not to mention the, for instance £280 paid to Donington to test for a morning....

And all we were on for anyway was a 15 min qually and 20 minute race. What extraordinary value for money.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

They said the cancellation was 'out of their control'. Clearly it was as apparently the works around the tunnel have been an area of concern for months now.

I understand the MSA give the track a licence on a weekly basis only.

I was told by an official yesterday that the recent touring car meeting was authorised at the last minute by Alan Gow, head of the MSA.

Oh, and he runs the touring car series...........


It was a pity it was all cancelled - there were hundreds of drivers with even more team members who had spent between them £Xxxxxxx to be there. What a wast of everyones money, not to mention the, for instance £280 paid to Donington to test for a morning....

And all we were on for anyway was a 15 min qually and 20 minute race. What extraordinary value for money.

Really pleased we didn't enter now. With Pembrey cancelled, it was considered for a while as there is such a big gap to Silverstone at the end of June. But as you say the high cost of testing at this circuit (why is it so expensive?) and entry for one 20 min race put us off.

I actually stopped going to watch the British Motorcycle GP a few years after it switched from Silverstone to Doni as getting out of the place was so awful. What hope for F1???!!!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by FFfan

I actually stopped going to watch the British Motorcycle GP a few years after it switched from Silverstone to Doni as getting out of the place was so awful. What hope for F1???!!!

I wouldn't worry about that as the idiot is not planning to allow people to drive to the British CAR RACING Grand Prix so that won't be an issue.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

I wouldn't worry about that as the idiot is not planning to allow people to drive to the British CAR RACING Grand Prix so that won't be an issue.

Yes I'd heard. The words "organising, p*$$ up & brewery" all sping to mind! Look forward to seeing you at Silverstone. No tunnels to collapse there; uless the heirs have been digging their way out!

[onenastyviper]

Forgive my rude questioning from a n00b (Car 82 NWFF1600) but what do you really care about? What do you want?

Costs are relative, how much is too much?

I find it all very confusing when people complain about the costs, yet cling to the ideals of ff1600 racing with the kent engine or acb10 tyres or whatever else you find or remember when reminiscing.

Participating in motorsport is expensive, going faster costs more. Unfortunate fact.

Will cheap tyres make any difference to your budget or will the 'more affluent' just end up with a larger number of fresh tyres?

Will you put up with lower race entries or will you complain when you have to drive long distances to different tracks?

Need I go on...

Sit down and think what do 'I' care about and what do 'I' want?

[driftwood]

as far as i can see there are 2 issues here that need addressing
1 is the race entry fees are going up every year so some one has to pay for it all and bottom line is its the entrant/driver
Circuits charge more for the daily rental and clubs book them and with all their other costs insurance racmsa Timing crew doctors fee etc it is all totted up and then a figure is calculated to equate to an entruy fee per race for say 20 car grid and that is break even for the club meeting
IF the clubs said to track owner sorry not paying that then we can see a reduction in track rental OR club books less race days and circuit will see error of their ways an dthen club can look to fill their grids due to fewer meetings
I do accept some cost can not be negotiated but the circuit owners ar eteh greddy bstds that tak eteh biggest slice

2 Tyres if a company can supply 4 black round things at a price lower than current supplier that ALSO last longer that is a benefit-If they perform as well a scurrent supplier that is a benefit
In days of old the Dunlop FFord tyre was not a discussion point as it lasted was not expensive and new tyres did not really help worn units or "run" in units worked better
sadly there have always been the "haves and have nots" throughout the last 50 odd years of motorsport but FFord was a series set up to equalis ethings

I could go on about Kent engine costs etc but the debate here as been for 8 pages on initial costs ie tyres and entry fees and I dont want to muddy the waters anymore with other factors
If folk are that concerned with cost there are 2 choices
1 is speak up
other is sit at home do nothing leave car in garage and i fear that is what most folk do

[RF_Racer]

Why do many British championships and clubs stipulate mandatory use of AVON? are they getting back handers? There are many other tyres available, Michelin, Khumo, Advan/Yoko, etc etc... Its time these brands were given a chance and competition is a good thing!

[driftwood]

i doubt we will be told the truth unless you want to sponsor theseries and then you can throw yr questions at the club but i do suspect some series have alliance to avon as supplier cum sponsor

[RF_Racer]

I am not just talking about Formula Fords here, but other single seater formulas, if more brands are introduced to the UK club racing scene, the better it is for us racers, we can have a choice and not end up paying silly Avon prices!

[driftwood]

I agree there are other brands but not always the size available from that company and for them to buildteh tooling do R & D cost money and they project5 years worth of sales to warrant it all
The 1 benefit from Avon is that it is a good copmpany will react quickly to modifcations required and was British til lusa Cooper Tires boght them

[FranksWilde]

Is that when the prices started going up?

[youngoldy]

Speaking on behalf of a front running team, and the interests of club ff1600, costs do need to be cut. We are a privately backed team, which like many other companies in the same industry, is seeing the amount of work wanted by customers slowing down. We need to cut costs ASAP to help us in the long run. The entry levels of post89 in the nw this year have been, in comparison with pre 90, abysmal. For the sake of the championship, we need to get more entrants into the Post89, and maintain, if not get even more entrants into the Pre90.

A self run driver on an understandable budget, may indulge in 3-5 tyre sets during the entire year, compared with a driver, for a team, buying say 10 sets during A YEAR (not season), do the maths and this adds up. Point 1. (Capping tyres will only decrease the tyre budget spenditure, not make the racing closer due to previous 'oh, he’s got better rubber than me' going slower excuses. FACT.)

Cars that are being run by teams/people and being charging for, will for example, be quicker on 70% of occasions than say those being prepared by self run drivers. The level of pace to be found in a car due to money being spent on mechanical and electrical parts is much less than time being spent preparing the car. Cliff Dempsey Racing, Wayne Poole, Medina, Goughracing, West Tec, you always see their cars (with a half handy driver) up the front. The reason for this, is quite simple. The right people are running and preparing the cars. There is nothing like time being spent on a car to make it go quicker, regardless of modifications and parts added. Point 2.

A tyre budget would to us, not really make any difference. If we were only allowed 3 sets, we would use 3 sets, as we can spend time on making sure we only go through 3 sets, and as equally as possible. All our drivers would need to know is how much grip we think there is left on the tyre, and how hard to push. Rather than 'self run driver' having all the thought process going on his/her (politically correct) head during time on track, i.e., not thinking about hitting the apex as apposed to thinking about how hard to push with the rubber grip left. Point 3. (Physiological, I know, but the right mind is needed to push at 100% to what is achievable.)

We also strongly agree with double header single race day meetings. We take part (majority) of our races in the nw championship, so travelling from Tamworth to Oulton park / Anglesey is quite a jaunt for our truck, motor home, vans, cars etc. And for our Portuguese driver, the fewer flights to more races available to him the better. OK, we try and reduce as many vehicles going up as possible, but only going that far north only 5 times as apposed to 8 times year is perhaps the most cost effective way of cutting costs. Time of work, food, hotels, flights, etc. Point 4.

As far as I can gather, some people would like a different tyre supplier to bring a new tyre out, and through their own views and reasons, this will 'reduce the cost of making and buying a tyre'. If the championship were to be given a new tyre supplier, and we (Red & Black Racing) made a decision to change tyre supplier, we would want to go out testing the new tyre to make sure we were getting the right performance out of the tyre and to make sure the car was responding the best way to tyre grip changes. (This would only happen as other front running drivers would also try the new rubber, and if their is an advantage to gained, you always want to be the first to find it.) More testing = more money = object defeated. Point 5.

Now then, where is my bed ...

[FranksWilde]

That was a bit of a rant

P1 who said that slower drivers (and I include myself in that) thought that they would go faster because of a tyre change. This is about costs.

P2 we all know that a correctly prepared car will go faster than one with the wheels pointing in the wrong directioins, and your right the teams do prepare quicker cars 70% of the time. This is because the one man band has to work for a living in his spare time and not spend the week preping a car. This is about costs.

P3 I don't know what your drivers are having to pay to do a season but if you don't think £1350 + vat (3 sets) compared to £4500 + VAT (10 sets) is a saving (£3150 + VAT) then it must be a lot.

P4 The main gripe that is running under this debate seems to be about a tender process that "does not happen". It may be happening for all we know and if it is then fantastic, Avon must be the best value for money. But if it isn't then something is wrong. Or would you dissagree.

P5 Double headers are deffinately the most cost effective way for a team because of the reasons you state. However for a one man band that can't afford to carry all the spares, if he crashes out in testing the day before he stands to lose more money. There are pros and cons for everything.

Has anybody rang the BRSCC to find out about the tender process, or are we just making it all up as we go along? I'm good at that!

[kartingdad]

I would have thought the disadvantages of 'maybe' not having the spares after a crash is more than mitigated by the cost savings over a season of double headers. Unless you are running a funny car, then its generally possible to find a spare to get you back on track.

Race meetings are generally once a month and I would have thought once your car is up to a decent level of prep, that should allow plenty of time to re prepare the car. Of course, there seem to be a few drivers for whom the term re prepare means putting a bit of petrol in....

The cost savings of double headers would buy you more spares.

[Mak]

At least 2 races per Day, if not three. Ie.. One Qual followed by three races. Think that some of the reason that team run cars are faster is that their drivers are wealthier and therefore test more, have more sets of tyres, brake pads, do more races ect.. Don't think we should perpetuate the line that a privately run car with keen, intelligent, talented driver could not be competitive. Afterall we are talking about club level racing, and ideally this should be primaily for self run cars! I have a question, Why can a Formula Ford series not just choose a specific (hard compound road tyre) similar to pre 87 FF and run with that? If everone has the same does it matter if its a second or two slower.. May be more fun, and require more talent to be fast.