[Multi 21] f1 is boring. manufactured for tv.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by codename_47

What I look for when I come to the sport is the on-track product and for too long we allowed refueling to blight the sport, for some reason we talked it up and deluded ourselves that someone overtaking the driver in front not using his skill on the racetrack but meanwhile biding his time until his rival pitted was actually worth celebrating.
Well, it wasn't

Is someone overtaking the driver in front not using his skill on the racetrack, but waiting until the next DRS zone worth celebrating either? I think not. Just my opinion though, you might disagree.

But anyway I miss the time where the main drawing point was still cars and drivers, rather faceless stats and facts regarding "overtaking". And if a driver/machine combination was so strong for the opposition, then so be it. Runaway wins are fine too. They are a nice demonstration of a maestro and a leading team at work.

That said, it's perfectly understandable why the focus changed recently. With the more and more uninspiring tracks, the more and more standardised cars, and the more and more robotic drivers, the public had to put its attention on something else. Hence why today's borderline caricatural fascination on "overtaking". Not to mention that we live in an era of instant gratification, blah blah blah etc etc etc

Honestly, if meaningless "overtaking" moves matter so much, why don't we switch the telly on NASCAR plate racing instead? Dozens of official lead changes a race, hurray! The formula MUST be working with those in-attackable stats! When do you bring F1 to Talladega Bernie?

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I sometimes watch a bit of NASCAR (I have dipped in and out of it, but particularly watched it when there were late-night highlights on Channel 5 here in the UK).

My interest is partly not sustained because of the 'futility' of watching the first half or so. It has such a build-up to its crescendo that a lot of the passing and re-passing early on seems irrelevant when you know there will be safety cars that will randomise everything.

The last ten or so laps are more pure (and often then someone gets angry and tries a retaliation attack, which is like the BTCC for me; a circus and not racing).

I agree 100%, sometimes I really don't understand how a Cup race gets so much rating from flag to flag. I'd much rather watch a Truck race that is roughly 1/3 or 1/4 the distance, the big names might not be there, but at least the drivers have to attack from the green flag, because they don't have much time to either make up ground, and don't have the opportunity to just luck in to the front with fortunate cautions timing.

Originally Posted by Scooter185

The super quick pit stops are pretty awesome, and go well with the sprint format of F1, but part of the reason I enjoy endurance racing is because of how they have to pull off more complicated pit stops even if they take 2 minutes. Of course stops like that mesh well with the race format.

True. I have to say also, IndyCar/NASCAR pitstops are pretty impressive too, they might be slower than F1, but they are achieved only a few crewmen. Not to mention the usual pitlane rush the crews are working in - courageous individuals indeed...

[Matt]

NASCAR pit crews are the best in the world.

[Paradise City]

I don't mind KERS too much. It just DRS and with DRS activation zones - well, it reminds me of a pin-ball machine. DRS just bugs the hell out of me. Maybe that's wrong but it does.

It's a tired refrain and it's easy said than done but I don't think they need any of this stuff. I appreciate they got frightened with Schumacher blasting away all before him during his Ferrari days but I still think if they designed smart aero regs; they'd get good racing without the need for penelope pitstop gizmos.

I am grateful there are no reverse grids and success ballast. They start goofing about with garbage like that, I'll stop watching F1.

[Knowlesy]

No capital letters whatsoever from the OP. A relative of bella?

[Al Weyman]

I participate in club motorsport but still like a bit of F1 and always have and why not?

[Armco Bender]

They should turn F1 into a reality TV series,sort a cross between the Kardashians and Geordie Shore.

[Aysedasi]

'I'm an F1 driver, get me out of here' might be quite apt for those with limited budgets.....

[Andrew2001]

Ok, what you're getting at, I sort of get but, this would sum up life in this age in general frankly.

The problem is, that technology is advancing so rapidly, that we, are using it as much as is possible, to further what we can do in a day, to better our lives and to reduce our work loads.
So F1, is in an unusual battle with itself, in that it is the peak of technology, but that very technology is being limited by the rule makers, to keep the cars to a safe speed, and to keep the action for the spectators interesting.
If you reduce the rules to such a point where there is very little advantage to be taken, then the cars will struggle to pass one another, because they are so similar.
All I'd like to see, is no DRS, get rid of the wide front wings, and get rid of Kers.
I want to see the FIA not jump on every single innovaton that is made.

So many people complain about 'the good old days', in life in general. They complain that the the rules were more lax, that you could do what ever you wanted ,that you were not free, and that the music was better ,the cars you drove were better, and that technology in general, had more soul. Well, I agree about the music, cars and aeroplanes, but if you want to go back to the old days, go live in the bush.

A modern F1 car is no different to one from the 60s, they both represent the best technology available at the time.

Look, I get that you do motorsport. You drive real cars around real race tracks. That's fine, I do know a few people at 'club' level. So I do get where you are coming from here, but it's ironic because all the people I know who race cars for fun at that sort of level don't like F1 either. The two guys I know who race F5000, on the other hand, do like F1.
I personally just love the technology, the nostalgia,and the progress of McLaren through time from their humble beginnings. Put simply, I am an enthusiast.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

They should turn F1 into a reality TV series,sort a cross between the Kardashians and Geordie Shore.

I was once told that F1 was run by people who had been to Disneyland and thought it was real life.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Andrew2001

A modern F1 car is no different to one from the 60s, they both represent the best technology available at the time.

But the '60's F1 car DID represent the best technology, and the modern F1 car does not. Which is precisely the problem for me.

If the modern F1 car represented the best technology, it might have solenoid operated valves which would instantly provide whatever funky valve timing the engine wanted at that point, variable intake trumpets, active suspension, and all manner of funky stuff they don't have. Heck, they might not even have piston engines. Maybe some dinky turbine generator unit that ran full tilt all the time and stored the excess energy during braking zones.

But we don't have that. Our loss.

[Adam43]

Did a '60s F1 car represent the best technology at the time? That is an interesting question.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Did a '60s F1 car represent the best technology at the time? That is an interesting question.

At the beginning of the '60's, I would say it did. In response to the turbine IndyCar, they banned turbines, so potentially from that point it began the process of prohibiting potentially better technology.

I can't think of any other situations prior to that where F1 prohibited specific technologies that were potentially better. Dimensional limits, yes, but not technological limits.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by miatanut

But we don't have that. Our loss.

Apparently not. The impression I get is that most F1 fans don't even want the 2014 changes that are coming in. Not because there isn't enough change, but because they don't want any change at all, and neither do the circuit promoters, among others, as apparently the biggest fear is that the 'wrong kind of noise' will cause ticket sales to slump. There goes Rotary engines, diesel engines, CVT and turbines, even before you get the chance to draw up some plans.

So it seems that we techno-junkies should be happy with what little change has been allowed to take place. It will be in line with current road car developments (downsized turbo engines with hybridization). And anyone who thinks that electric power is dead, hasn't seen the all electric Mercedes' SLS AMG coupe.

BBC sport.

"It has 750bhp, an astonishing 1000Nm (newtonmetres) of torque (almost double that of a Ferrari 458), does 0-60mph in 3.9 seconds and has a range of 250km. A total re-charge should take between one and four hours, depending on the facilities."

And all because of developments in new battery technology in their F1 cars.

Mercedes, and many others, have long since known that electric powered vehicles were going to be the only economically viable way for road vehicles to go.

Hydrogen power is still too reliant on fossil fuel refining for any realistic amounts of hydrogen production, and the fuel cell technology and fuel storage isn't likely to make much sense for anything other than factories and supertankers. Then there's the infrastructure for it all, and that's the real 'kicker' with regard to it being economically viable.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Did a '60s F1 car represent the best technology at the time? That is an interesting question.

Probably not, but then they probably didn't need to be any more unreliable than they already were.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I can't think of any other situations prior to that where F1 prohibited specific technologies that were potentially better. Dimensional limits, yes, but not technological limits.

I seem to recall that, in the Grand Prix of the twenties, you could either have a supercharged engine, or a larger non-supercharged engine. This was also at a time when engines of all kinds (gas turbines, etc) had been invented.

And 'potentially better' for an F1 car isn't necessarily 'potentially better' for a road car, and vice versa.

[Andrew2001]

miatanut,

Yeh you have a point there regarding the modern cars being held back. I was kind of trying to get at the cars are as advanced as the rules will allow, in the given era.
It is a tricky compromise though....safety, by limiting technology, which keeps the cars closer together, or widen the rules, which increases costs, spreads the field out. Immmm....

Basically, I just go watch episode 5, season 15, of Top Gear, and watch Lewis Hamilton talking to Clarkson about driving the MP4/4. What an awesome video, tribute to Ayrton Senna and the incredible turbo years of F1.

Anyway, very interesting topic, and interesting contributions by all.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The impression I get is that most F1 fans don't even want the 2014 changes that are coming in. Not because there isn't enough change, but because they don't want any change at all..

I think this is probably the heart of it. It's been a few years since I subscribed to Racecar Engineering, but a recurring theme I saw in articles there was that the people who work there are true gearheads, interested in the latest new technology but they observed that there was a tremendous amount of inertia among contemporary racing fans. They blamed it on the spec car era which has caused people to forget how fun it was when a team would show up with some trick new technology and maybe win the race, or maybe break down two laps in, creating an additional variable missing in modern racing.

The last 1 1/2 minutes of this interview with Carroll Shelby is really at the heart of it for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqQ6LGpiGY4

The ultimate petrol head, but at 88 years old, his attitude was "Electric racing cars? Bring it!"

As an old man, we was a lot more open-minded than the typical 22 year old racing fan now.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Andrew2001

miatanut,

Yeh you have a point there regarding the modern cars being held back. I was kind of trying to get at the cars are as advanced as the rules will allow, in the given era.
It is a tricky compromise though....safety, by limiting technology, which keeps the cars closer together, or widen the rules, which increases costs, spreads the field out. Immmm....

Basically, I just go watch episode 5, season 15, of Top Gear, and watch Lewis Hamilton talking to Clarkson about driving the MP4/4. What an awesome video, tribute to Ayrton Senna and the incredible turbo years of F1.

Anyway, very interesting topic, and interesting contributions by all.

I've gone on too long about it, but you could cut the fuel way back, dump most of the silly rules, drop the flag, and separate the men from the boys.

Forced inefficiency (mediocrity) makes it kind of a pointless exercise.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by miatanut

As an old man, we was a lot more open-minded than the typical 22 year old racing fan now.

Agreed.

They don't seem to be too interested in the technical bits. And why would they be? You lift the bonnet (hood) of a modern road car, remove the (inevitable) black plastic cover, and you're faced with a whole lot of pipes and cabling that mostly has to do with the emission system. The emission system has to be made to be more efficient because of government legislation, and it is mostly this that is causing the massive amounts of additional plumbing and cabling that we see under the bonnets and hoods of cars.

No wonder that car manufacturers are turning to simpler means of making motor vehicles move.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I've gone on too long about it, but you could cut the fuel way back, dump most of the silly rules, drop the flag, and separate the men from the boys.

Forced inefficiency (mediocrity) makes it kind of a pointless exercise.

This is the crux of a great post Miatanut.

"Forced inefficiency (mediocrity) makes it kind of a pointless exercise"

Ferrari's mediocrity is the standard!

"But that was banned too. Unfortunately it was a case of 'Ferrari International Aid'. Ferrari and the FIA got together, and it was the usual Ferrari modus operandi: if they couldn't get something to work they got it banned. They couldn't get active to work, they certainly wouldn't have got CVT to in a short space of time. So as a consequence the whole thing got closed down"

Adrian Newey, Motorsport Magazine, p56. December 2012

[luke g28]

Some good posts here.

What will an F1 car look like in 20 years time?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by luke g28

Some good posts here.

What will an F1 car look like in 20 years time?

Wipeout.......

[chillibowl]

great another track in the middle of no where and no spectators.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Attack the post not the poster is the rule here.

What a load of rubbish, the poster penned the post so you cannot divorce the two. I suppose I will get another email telling me that I am not obeying the rules, sigh...

[Adam43]

Sorry, but it is not only a rule of this forum which you agreed to when you signed up, but also the basis of a free democracy. There is a difference.

Yes, the user walked into a room full of F1 fans and said it was pants. We take a dim view of trolls, but if you can't attack what you think is wrong with a post without attacking the poster then you demonstrate similar behaviour. There are plenty of forums that don't mind people insulting each other...

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Sorry, but it is not only a rule of this forum which you agreed to when you signed up, but also the basis of a free democracy. There is a difference.

Yes, the user walked into a room full of F1 fans and said it was pants. We take a dim view of trolls, but if you can't attack what you think is wrong with a post without attacking the poster then you demonstrate similar behaviour. There are plenty of forums that don't mind people insulting each other...

Oh yes, indeed. Been there, done that.

(Even us old gits at TNF had a thread suspended recently - Zimmers at 10 paces...)