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13 May 2007, 22:06 (Ref:1912651) | #101 | |
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Yes, we were always going to have to prove the cars history,but remember the history of FL-9-65 is well documented.
One of the reasons for being so public on this forum is that one of you guys out there might have some information on the car prior to Mr Rizzi ownership. Please understand this car appears to be a genuine Brabham(well used) in every aspect,the chassis,welding tube,AM no:,dash ,switches chassis plate,oil tank uprights,etc,etc,etc. So whilst it is unlikely to be a BT14(although stranger things have happened),IT may well be a BT15/16 modified some 20 or so years ago.If it is then so be it we will restore the car as such but can do nothing without the real history. So any help would be greatly appreciated> |
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14 May 2007, 08:07 (Ref:1912903) | #102 | ||
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A Pierluigi Rizzi was racing at Monza in 2004, in a Lucchini A.R. (some kind of sports car - possibly a modified Alfa Romeo?).
http://www.monzanet.it/AreaImmagini/...orscheiscr.pdf Other people in the race include Ripamonti, you might be able to find out more through someone like that. There are several Italian Junior & F3 racers listed on the Formula Junior For Sale list, maybe ask them if they know Mr Rizzi? http://www.formulajunior.com/Newslet...r%20No125A.doc Mr Rizzi also went off circuit at Imola in 2002 (judging by the other cars in the race this would have been in your Brabham) http://www.piavejolly.com/ita/pagine...11-10-2002.htm Maybe one of those leads will prove profitable? |
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14 May 2007, 09:06 (Ref:1912949) | #103 | ||
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I think this link will be more direct:
http://www.karenbrown.com/property.a...0-d9b3175f8641 Note: "Your host is a surgeon with a passion for vintage cars and car racing". Edit: or even more direct: http://www.villa-albarea.com/contacting.htm Last edited by allenbrown; 14 May 2007 at 09:09. |
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14 May 2007, 12:07 (Ref:1913094) | #104 | |
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Thanking you gents very much for the info: I have spoken to MR Rizzi who unfortunately was of little help.(even though he seemed pretty genuine)
He says he purchased the vehical in Belguim some 5/6 years ago in the same format/condition etc that it still is in. He thinks the FIA papers were with it and thats about all he can recall. Well I suppose its a start,any of you guys know of a car like this that was in Belguim ,or have any contacts their? He claimed to know nothing about the coys misreprestation etc. |
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14 May 2007, 13:14 (Ref:1913144) | #105 | ||
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If the FIA papers pre-date him, they should give the name of the owner at the time they were written.
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14 May 2007, 13:31 (Ref:1913169) | #106 | |||
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I'm in Belgium and had a Brabham twin-cam, which I'm pretty sure isn't your car - Alan Baillie would have recognised it, since he rebuilt it after the back end was wiped off on the Eau Rouge barriers. I saw it in Germany a few years ago and it was still red with gold stripe & wheels. The other Brabham twin-cam that was here belonged to Thierry Demortier (I think that is the correct name), who ran (runs?) a car upholstery company in Brussels, he later moved onto 1600cc F2 cars. I saw it at Willie Widar's (builder of the Widi's in the 60s) when he was finishing it, one clue as to its origin was someone had written Brabham F3 on the battery! This would have been nearly 20 years ago..... That car was finished in tradition Brabham green/gold, and had a 1600cc twin cam (despite which my 1500cc version usually lapped it!). Unfortunately Willie died, but his son Marc has taken over the business Philippe Demeyer (phdm on this forum) is in contact with Marc who might have some records of the car. I found the following e-mail address but have no idea if it is valid: widi@advalvas.be Hope that helps! |
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14 May 2007, 15:53 (Ref:1913279) | #107 | ||
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Alan B. concurs with this – his “educated guess” is a BT15 F3 car that WW got his hands on. He converted the F3 engine to FJ, sold it to Alan whereupon it promptly blew up, and probably fitted a twin cam into the F3 chassis. Alan cannot remember the name of the person it belonged to before WW. Marc would have been very young then so probably does not know much about it, but one can always try. And of course Demortier is still very active with his F2 car, so he should be contacted.
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15 May 2007, 00:14 (Ref:1913561) | #108 | |||
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How unusual to hear that a WW engine went wrong! I don't think Marc had much involvement with the cars at the time, but it is possible Willie kept some records, so he might know where the car came from. Demortier should be easy to find, but he might not have been aware of the car's origin. WW used to work closely with a couple of people - Leo Schildkamp and a French guy called Patrick something, they could be possible sources for the car. PHDM might know more or be able to dig, I'll point him at this thread. Peter |
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15 May 2007, 02:34 (Ref:1913597) | #109 | |||
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Quote:
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15 May 2007, 08:15 (Ref:1913686) | #110 | |||
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Quote:
Marcus |
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15 May 2007, 09:47 (Ref:1913745) | #111 | |
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Thankyou again guys for the leads and information,have sent an E-mail to the Marc Widar address and it seem to be current so i will wait for a reply,hopefully.
I have also tracked an E-mail address for Thirry Demortier so hopefully a reply may also come from their. But please donot stop fowarding any information that you may think of. |
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15 May 2007, 09:50 (Ref:1913747) | #112 | |||
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I always remember listening to WW explain to customers that all Climax FW cylinder heads were porous so it was impossible to keep the water in the engines and they always expired. I never understood how these customers failed to notice all the other FW powered cars that managed to complete their races! |
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15 May 2007, 14:12 (Ref:1913944) | #113 | ||
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As far as I know, the De Mortier "BT14" was in the UK and IIRC was advertised for sale in Autosport one or two years ago.
FL-9-65 was for sale on race-cars.com a few years ago. It was in California. Check the archives. Luigi Moreschi had a BT14 for sale some time ago. It has now been removed from his web site. I suspect it probably was the car entered in the Monaco auction. |
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15 May 2007, 18:33 (Ref:1914135) | #114 | ||
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Yes, PHDM, I can confirm that the Bt14 that Mr. Moreschi had on his site was the same owned by Mr. Rizzi and then sold in Monaco.
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15 May 2007, 21:38 (Ref:1914250) | #115 | ||
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16 May 2007, 01:34 (Ref:1914334) | #116 | ||
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Quote:
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16 May 2007, 02:36 (Ref:1914356) | #117 | ||
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So Pierluigi Rizzi buys his BT14 from Belgium in about 2001. And subsequently lets Moreschi Motorsport advertise it for sale as a BT21, presumably suffering memory loss that it’s a BT14. Rizzi then lets Coys have the car and in turn Coys muddle their 8s & 9s, and confuse Belgium for the Belgium that’s next to Australia.
Thierry De Mortier’s car, (was possibly for sale in UK 2 years ago?) was bought from Willy Widar who had the car about 20 years ago in turn possibly bought out of the UK. Is this the same car as above? Thierry holds the key to the short term answer, good luck grice80, you’re going to need it! Andrew |
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16 May 2007, 05:52 (Ref:1914398) | #118 | ||
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Althoiugh I would not bet on it I think the De Mortier BT14 had Revolution wheels, not Brabham wobblies.
I also remember clearly that number on the chassis plate was BT14-"a number that I don't remember" and not FL-"still a number that I don't remember"-65 but obviously a plate is easily changed. Last edited by phdm; 16 May 2007 at 05:56. |
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16 May 2007, 09:11 (Ref:1914502) | #119 | |||
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So far there is nothing to connect De Mortier's Brabham with the one that we are discussing (apart from speculation on my part!), that presumably went to the UK as Philippe has suggested. The Moreschi car would seem to be the one. A 1965 BT21 must have been a very early prototype!! So early that the chassis is less substantial than production cars..... Does Mr Moreschi have any additional information? |
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16 May 2007, 10:43 (Ref:1914561) | #120 | ||
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Wouldn't a 1965 BT21 be a BT15 with BT21 mods?
The prototype BT21 was a mid 1966 car, raced by John Kendall in 1967 and unlike any other BT21 it had the older style Brabham chassis designation, including the date. Chris |
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16 May 2007, 10:47 (Ref:1914566) | #121 | |
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Lots of speculation and its all great,somewhere along the line the truth will come out.
Please keep in mind I am absolutely sure it is a Brabham (arch motors chassis) definatly BT14/15/16. I have had,been involved,worked on and studied enough of these cars to know am AM chassis. I have never seen any other source replicate the gas flux weld quality of their work.But it is possible I could be wrong. Also all the parts on the car are original stuff. I believe Dennis is of the same opinion. Once again thanks for everyones interest and help. |
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16 May 2007, 17:46 (Ref:1914820) | #122 | |||
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I'm quite sure that it is a genuine Brabham. The problem of that car, when I was interested in, was that it was claimed to be a Formula 1 car. As you prbably know, there are a couple of BT14 "FL" raced some Formula 1 races: the FL-6-65 was driven by Rodney Bloor in a couple of non championship Formula 1 races (Goodwood and Brands Hatch) and also another BT 14 was in the F1 Goowood race (the FL-8-65) with John Cardwell. The problem was that, at least until 2005, the FL-6-65 was the car of Mr Rodger Newman and Mr. Rizzi did not give me any evidence about the F1 history of the car. And, in any case, it was not possible for me to understand which model of Brabham it was. |
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16 May 2007, 22:16 (Ref:1914981) | #123 | ||
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Allen when did you 'harvest' that photo?
Andrew |
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17 May 2007, 02:53 (Ref:1915060) | #124 | ||
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I found it in archive.org in 2004 and 2005 versions of the site.
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17 May 2007, 03:25 (Ref:1915065) | #125 | ||
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Thanks Allen, so Moreschi Motorsport must have had it on consignment for Rizzi as he says bought it 5/6 years ago.
The implication is that 2 years ago neither of them knew what it was. |
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