Phoenix Off

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Tony, the point was that whether it is "sonny's" or "Jimmy's" it is not a national deal and probably not that meaningful $$-wise.

I agree with you on the other points, particularly sponsorship "way back when" as i was able to go to some of the races then I saw that first hand.

Excellent point about the significance of losing a race in your home market vs Korea/China...

How wrong you are John. Sonny's is probably the fastest growing BBQ chain in the USA. They just haven't made it up to the burgh yet. Dale Coyne owns 7 of them in Florida. And I'll tell you what it is damn good eatin, sliced beef bbq brisket with some smokin sauce, garlic bread, BBQ beans, cole slaw and sweet tea, whoo boy!

Sonny's is actually Florida based.

[Hazza]

mmm...BBQ Beef...

Oh god, I need to go make a sandwich!

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

One also can't discount the damage the cancellations do to the Series and the perception of stability.

Absolutely and its not rocket science for people to understand. It is mighty integral that ChampCar sat down with the promoters/ sponsors and teams after the announcement of the Pheonix race (tabled with that the no CC in 08 propaganda) and ensured them of ChampCar and its ability to provide a solid platform for 2008 and beyond.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The series has teams with only 2 sponsors you would recognize: CDW (rumored to be going elsewhere already) and McDonalds (who have not been known to use CC in any of their advertising). The rest of the cars have sponsorship from iRise, who are essentilally no one and things like "Jimmy's" BBQ sauce (I think).

Red Bull is recognisable isnt it, by the way who increased their signage over the Euro swing.

Does it really matter who the sponsor is though ? I mean sponsors such as Medizone, Pay By Touch, Muermans, Graffitiart, Ticketmaster, Trust, Lexington, Aussie Vineyards etc, are paying $$$$ isnt that priority number 1.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I know it is anathema to point this out, but the other series has cars with names I have actually heard of like 7-11 or Argent or the Marlboro colors on the Penske cars. While their TV ratings are nothing to write home to mother about either, it seems they have been reasonably more successful at attracting $$ from real companies.

Is it attracting new sponsors though? Stability is an important thing with sponsor absolutely but Marlboro, Target and 7-11 (if Im not mistaken 7-11 are owned by the same people who owned Kool cigarettes?) have been tied to teams prior to the IRL. What new sponsors have jumped onboard, Motorola yes but they have been tied to Michael Andretti aswell.

[mountainstar]

And just because a car has a shiny paintjob with a "name" sponsor doesn't mean anything. Target is on the ganassi cars but the money to run that team really comes from it's nascar operations.

[climb]

Do you work in Chip's accounting staff?

[JohnSSC]

While I would be the last one to pass on BBQ, my point is that Sonny's is not Target, however Chip does the accounting. Further, since Coyne owns a number of franchises is it possible he is actually self-promoting using space that would otherwise be vacant on his car? I would go a step further to say that there must be some sort of quid pro quo between Target and Chip re: the IRL car branding as there would seem to be a number of liability issues involved. I don't think you can just go around using registered trademarks to name things, if you get my drift.

Those "name" sponsors in the IRL are not just hanging around out of habit. They stay because they get perceived value from their investment. So no, I am not blinded by pretty paint jobs.

Red Bull would have signage in Europe - it is their home territory. Question: Since this was the first Euro swing for CC, how can you tell they "increased their signage?" Increased over what?

[Mystery]

I guess they mean increased over their US exposure but as you say Europe is their home so of course they did that. I'm not really sure of the relevance to this thread but at least Red Bull are on board and being supportive.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Red Bull would have signage in Europe - it is their home territory. Question: Since this was the first Euro swing for CC, how can you tell they "increased their signage?" Increased over what?

As mystery pointed out, increased signage over the Euro swing, increasing their presence from the previous 2007 races.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

While I would be the last one to pass on BBQ, my point is that Sonny's is not Target, however Chip does the accounting. Further, since Coyne owns a number of franchises is it possible he is actually self-promoting using space that would otherwise be vacant on his car? I would go a step further to say that there must be some sort of quid pro quo between Target and Chip re: the IRL car branding as there would seem to be a number of liability issues involved. I don't think you can just go around using registered trademarks to name things, if you get my drift.

Oh no you missed my point. Target is on the car with their consent even with some financial contribution, but the true cost of the irl team is borne by the nascar operation.

[indycool]

mountainstar, there's no question in my mind that Target has a "blanket" racing deal for the Ganassi NASCAR and IRL operations, but the NASCAR team paying for the Indycar team? Maybe Floyd Ganassi Sr.'s barge business in Pittsburgh is paying for both of them. I don't know. And I don't think you do, either. Link or are you Chip's accountant?

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by indycool

mountainstar, there's no question in my mind that Target has a "blanket" racing deal for the Ganassi NASCAR and IRL operations, but the NASCAR team paying for the Indycar team? Maybe Floyd Ganassi Sr.'s barge business in Pittsburgh is paying for both of them. I don't know. And I don't think you do, either. Link or are you Chip's accountant?

Think of it this way indy cool when it comes to ganassi. He has a "blanket" agreement with Target.
That blanket agreement covers both NASCAR and IRL. However if the NASCAR team goes away, so will the sponsorship. If the IRL team goes away, Target may only reduce the number of dollars spent on sponsorship.

The sponsor deal hinges on the NASCAR side of the operation NOT the IRL side.

[Fogelhund]

I guess the theory being floated is that Champcar teams need to start a NASCAR team to be viable then? Something Gentilozzi apparently needs to look into.


http://www.canoe.com/sports/nouvell...903-125601.html

Here is a loose translation from French.

One is far from the beautiful years of CART in the Champ series Because One starts to ask for for how long it will survive, so much the situation worsens.

The sponsors are very few, the races are cancelled, the majority of the pilots must pay out of their own pocket to run, very little are paid... and some, like Alexandre Tagliani, who according to their contract should be paid, are not!

With amost mo salary from Team Australia the two last seasons, the Québécois driver returned with Paul Gentilozzi, who this time offered a contract guaranteed with wages, paid expenditure and percentage of the purses to him, for the present season. Tag accepted - it did not really have other option - even if Gentilozzi owed him 50 000$ for the 2004 season. "Before signing the contract, he told me he would pay what he ows me", Tagliani told us.

Without incoming money for the last several weeks, a rumour has circulated stating that Gentilozzi has serious money worries with its team following the withdrawal of the Lexington sponsorship. "We cannot even buy certain parts which we need for the car. They have to be borrowed from other teams ", told us members of his team, off the record, when we were in Edmonton.

In June, we were informed that Tagliani has not been paid since the beginning of the season. he has received neither his wages, neither his travelling expenses, nor his purses. When the teams arrived to Europe, we learned of the RSPORTS split. Several reasons were called upon, but the only true one seems to be the money worries of Gentilozzi, which would have several unpaid invoices in particular to certain members of his personnel.

Tagliani almost didn't race in Europe because Gentilozzi required group PSM Marketing the last sponsorship payment for the canadian races. Alan Labrosse, which manages the career of the Québécois pilot now, required that Tags be paid by Gentilozzi before giving the sum due to him. Furious, Gentilozzi made threats, but yesterday morning, an hour before the race, he finally concluded an agreement with Tagliani.

"Gentilozzi promised that the sum due will be versed to me and he has commited himself to pay me completely even if other debtors creditor await to be paid."

Tagliani has been confronted with this situation for several months. This outcome will relieve him of an enormous pressure. Rumours coming from Europe say Tags will be replaced for the two last races of the year by a paying driver, because for the moment Gentilozzi's tank seems dry!

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I guess the theory being floated is that Champcar teams need to start a NASCAR team to be viable then? Something Gentilozzi apparently needs to look into.


http://www.canoe.com/sports/nouvell...903-125601.html

Here is a loose translation from French.

The the theory being floated is that ANY race team needs a sponsor, be it a commercial sponsor or the team owner sponsoring the team.
In the case of the IRL at least one of the teams has the luxury of having "blanket" sponsorship due to the strength of their NASCAR team NOT the strength of the IRL team.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

mountainstar, there's no question in my mind that Target has a "blanket" racing deal for the Ganassi NASCAR and IRL operations, but the NASCAR team paying for the Indycar team? Maybe Floyd Ganassi Sr.'s barge business in Pittsburgh is paying for both of them. I don't know. And I don't think you do, either. Link or are you Chip's accountant?

When you put your "sources" on the table, I will mine.

[indycool]

First, Tony, the Target open-wheel sponsorship came first, going back to Ganassi's CART days.

Then mountainstar, it wasn't me who claimed Ganassi's NASCAR operation paid for his IRL operation. It was you.

Also, Ganassi has a partner in his NASCAR operation in Felix Sabates. Not so in his IRL operation.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

First, Tony, the Target open-wheel sponsorship came first, going back to Ganassi's CART days.

Then mountainstar, it wasn't me who claimed Ganassi's NASCAR operation paid for his IRL operation. It was you.

Also, Ganassi has a partner in his NASCAR operation in Felix Sabates. Not so in his IRL operation.

You've posted unsubstantiated "facts" for years supposedly from various "sources" you have. When you are ready to publicly announce your sources, I shall mine. No need for names, just job positions and with who and how. And make sure you are detailed as you go back a long way.

[indycool]

Well, I certainly can't claim Ganassi's accountant as a source and I've never seen a quote from him/her or Ganassi about it. Add an IMO to your statement and we'll discuss it on equal terms.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by indycool

First, Tony, the Target open-wheel sponsorship came first, going back to Ganassi's CART days.

Then mountainstar, it wasn't me who claimed Ganassi's NASCAR operation paid for his IRL operation. It was you.

Also, Ganassi has a partner in his NASCAR operation in Felix Sabates. Not so in his IRL operation.

Perhaps something is being lost in the internet.

Yes, Ganassi had Target sponsorship since the 1990 (I think it was 1990), however times have changed since the split in open wheel racing.

I have no direct knowledge of Ganassi's finance.
But it does make sense if Ganassi were to divest himself of his NASCAR operations then Target would probably drop Ganassi or greatly reduce their sponsorship level of the remaining open wheel team.
The ability of Target to be involved with a NASCAR operation is worth FAR more than being involved with the Ganassi open wheel operation.
When Ganassi joined up with Felix Sabates, it was Sabates that was having the financial problems. Selling part of his operation to Ganassi is what kept that team going.

[indycool]

Yes, time have changed.....and Target's still on Ganassi's Indy cars.

[JohnSSC]

..and I guess since they had leftover paint they put it on his Grand Am cars at Daytona...along with some other races, I believe...

[Mystery]

Don't want to come over all Moderator-ish here and that's all very interesting but can we perhaps keep this thread to the relevance of the cancellation of Phoenix to CCWS's present and future.

What Target's sponsorship covers and indeed whether CCWS offers a viable sponsorship proposal at all is a topic for another thread and one about which there is unlikely to be any consensus.

[JohnSSC]

Fair comment, Mystery - not at all inappropriate! Sorry to have gotten carried away with that.

[indycool]

Both Phoenix and CC have said the Phoenix cancellation doesn't affect Vegas, but signs are starting to point that it does or will in some form.

[D.R.T.]

Which signs IndyCool?

Miller wrote something on the subject which is very thought provoking. There is huge potential with the Vegas event, so hopefully there is enough of a carrot there for Jensen and co to give version 2 a real crack

[indycool]

1. The promoter lost a LOT of money -- I've heard everything from $9-19 million. After doing that, is it a surprise they canceled Phoenix?
2. Construction in the area of the race course is ongoing for a new health center right where one set of bleachers was for this year for one, plus other projects.
3. The downtown casinos saw no change from their business on race weekend and actually complained they lost when the track didn't get torn down by Monday and people couldn't even reach downtown easily.
4. Jim Freudenberg recently told the LV City Council that the promoter couldn't pay its bill to the city yet because CC hadn't paid them (what payment CC would be making to the promoter is conjecture and ??).
5. There is already talk -- and it's on a board or two -- that an area around the Thomas and Mack Center at UNLV is being scoped and considered as a new venue. IMO, shutting down a major artery like Tropicana (when traffic is terrible for stuffing 16,000 into that arena for a boxing match) and/or Swenson to find room to race around UNLV dormitories....IMO, someone's out of their minds.