"No Money From Ford" (merged x3)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Do you think win on Sunday, sell on Monday works? Offer a free Ipod and you can sell five times as many Hyundais than if Hyundai built a V8Supercar.

Motorsport, all forms of motorsport today, is about promoting the brand, not the model. V8 Supercar Commodores are out there representing all Holdens not just the ones that look like Commodores.

Nissan want to race in Australia and publicly criticsed Australian racing for not presenting a viable option.

You can't convince Toyota to run by saying, look, we changed the lettering.

Either you embrace the guys who do want to show up or you don't pretend to be interested with phoney press releases that generate headlines every 18 months.

Sure I would agree it is more about the brand now than the specific model, but I do think using a niche model is not the pathway to success unless you want to be a GT series.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Have to agree with you on those points. I find the only problem with Ford is our Brain dead leaders in the US of A don't know a good product when they see it. Ford AUst like Holden has designed and built superior cars to Detroit, yet GM allows Holden some leeway yet FORD US OF THE GODDAMN A ( Blinkers on) just can't acccept that we build a half decent car and have done for some years, except the Au( a dud by Aust standards) but whilst good old boys in detroit put there head into the sand Ford AUST suffers.

Now for the worst thing our suppossed friends over the Pacific, Why did they cull the Manaro, why does a union dictate how many cars we export, why is the the supposed free trade agreement gearded to suit outdated practices. ?

Yes Both Ford and GM may have products, but they still cant make them like we do.

**** I remeber Yanks coming to Bathurst and couldn't believe we could run XW/XY and Manaro's etc around the mount on radials, whilst they wont run NASCAR if there is a sun shower.

Soory mate but the Land of Liberty and B******* is still way behind.

Perhaps we should nationalize Holden and Ford here and tell Detroit to shove it.

Since when does a Holden become a USA CHEV? SInce the Yanks can't make them.

There are some left hand drive Falcon mules running around the USA in testing, so the chance is still there.

I remember the Monaro died because Australian standards for 2006 made it to expensive to change over. Ultimately USA sales kept that car going for much longer than Holden ever intended.

You can't run Superspeedways in the rain. They've already tried a rain tire and it doesn't work

[Matt]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Have to agree with you on those points. I find the only problem with Ford is our Brain dead leaders in the US of A don't know a good product when they see it. Ford AUst like Holden has designed and built superior cars to Detroit, yet GM allows Holden some leeway yet FORD US OF THE GODDAMN A ( Blinkers on) just can't acccept that we build a half decent car and have done for some years, except the Au( a dud by Aust standards) but whilst good old boys in detroit put there head into the sand Ford AUST suffers.

Now for the worst thing our suppossed friends over the Pacific, Why did they cull the Manaro, why does a union dictate how many cars we export, why is the the supposed free trade agreement gearded to suit outdated practices. ?

Yes Both Ford and GM may have products, but they still cant make them like we do.

**** I remeber Yanks coming to Bathurst and couldn't believe we could run XW/XY and Manaro's etc around the mount on radials, whilst they wont run NASCAR if there is a sun shower.

Soory mate but the Land of Liberty and B******* is still way behind.

Perhaps we should nationalize Holden and Ford here and tell Detroit to shove it.

Since when does a Holden become a USA CHEV? SInce the Yanks can't make them.

Someones got their panties in a twist. FYI, it's a Pontiac, not a Chevrolet.


Oh, and a V8SC Benz C-Class sounds pretty cool to me.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt

Someones got their panties in a twist. FYI, it's a Pontiac, not a Chevrolet.


Oh, and a V8SC Benz C-Class sounds pretty cool to me.

I prefer this:

[Matt]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I prefer this:

Two door, and too small of a V8. :P

[cavvy]

There is a four door & if you want parity BMW would need to detune the small V8.

[Peter Nightingale]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Yes Renault control Nissan, but Nissan are also big in markets that Renault have not had a significant presence in for three decades. Renault are not going to micromanage Nissan in places like... well everywhere east of Turkey really.

What about when Renault start manufacture @ Chenai in India this year with some product aimed at Australia....

[mac]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think one of the issues with V8's and Ford and Holden is that a third partner is welcome only if they carry their fair share of freight. I don't think they want a 3rd partner that fields a 2 car team and has a narrow focus while Ford and GM pay the rest of the bills.

More like...

A third party is only welcome if and when Holden and/or Ford decide that they no longer want to pay as much money as they have been, jeopardising the future of the category.

I find it astonishing that other manufacturers are now being sought enthusiastically after so many years of derision and exclusion. But now, the future of the category is at risk, come and play with us please....

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Sure I would agree it is more about the brand now than the specific model, but I do think using a niche model is not the pathway to success unless you want to be a GT series.

Group C that so many recall as the 'good old days' featured two-door sports coupes (RX-7, 635CSi & Camaro). By and large it does not matter whether they are GTs or not. Group A's dis enchantment was that there was no place for a Falcon V8 and that the Commodore was not competitive.

That and there was the Bob Jane extravaganza at the Thunderdome where Falcon and Commodore V8s were racing to take people away from Group A.

You race the model the manufacturer wants to race. If you dictate to them the terms then they just wont show.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

What about when Renault start manufacture @ Chenai in India this year with some product aimed at Australia....

Hasn't happenned yet so its not yet relevant. Even then you still don't micromanage. If Renault was going to dictate everything Nissan does you may as well sack everybody at Nissan above the sales reps, peel off the badges and give all the cars diamond logos.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

You race the model the manufacturer wants to race. If you dictate to them the terms then they just wont show.

That's letting the inmates run the asylum.

Quite the opposite. You do need to firmly dictate the terms and the rules. Every time in motor racing history the manufacturers have too much say it's game over within a few short years.

What do people remember about Group C? The ole 351 and the Commodore. I don't hear any wistful memories about the 635i or the RX-7.

It seems people forget V8 Supercars is a very successful product and has a an excellent developmental series as well. I don't see the need to change a successful product. V8 Supercars is a not an equal opportunity race series, nor a freak enviro science project, nor a multi class series(read Alan Gow and fixing the BTCC), nor it is about the wine and cheese crowd, it's about good hard racing with loud, stinky, fast cars. If people want to watch GT's, then such a series exists.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by mac

More like...

A third party is only welcome if and when Holden and/or Ford decide that they no longer want to pay as much money as they have been, jeopardising the future of the category.

I find it astonishing that other manufacturers are now being sought enthusiastically after so many years of derision and exclusion. But now, the future of the category is at risk, come and play with us please....

In all the articles I've read over the years, I've never heard derision and exclusion. Only that any other manufacturer that joins pulls it's load. The old days of interloping 2 car factory teams and shut out privateers is over.

[Oldtony]

Moutainstar, A lot of people remember Groups A and C quite fondly no matter what the gospel according to TC is. The Biantes out draw V8SC at Eastern Creek.
V8SC WAS a successful product, but it it losing manufacturer and sponsor support as it becomes increasing irrelevent.
It certainly isn't equal opportunity, it's a franchise thing sold and controlled by an entertainment company.
It isn't a "freak enviro science project" and that is one of the reasons many sponsors don't want it as part of their image.
Loud and stinky yes, but to keep the racing close they have to adopt the NASCAR trick of contrived yellws and SCs.
GT could be popular to watch but the egos involved will nip that in the bud.
Our vproblem is what will be Australia's premier racing class when V8SC implodes. Someone should be developing it now.
Showroom stock? Sports or GT? maybe GP2?

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Matt

Someones got their panties in a twist. FYI, it's a Pontiac, not a Chevrolet.


Oh, and a V8SC Benz C-Class sounds pretty cool to me.

Mountainstar, I respect you input in all forums, but I will remind you each Holden that leaves our shores is either Chev or recently Pontiac. Yes are standards might be high, but thats because we make better cars.
Worlds faster Four Door Sedan - Ford XY GTHO- Yanks Nil

Nothing personal, but USA is full of itself and the rest of the World has caught up and passing. My main point is that every thing Holden and Ford Aust do has to be signed of by bogan yanks who are still playing with drum brakes. The new boss of Holden is crying poor, see Herald Sun, wanting our Govt to look after them. Yet the Parent company keeps cutting. If I was PM of Aus I would tell him politely.that there is an airport down road, a plane is leaving for Detroit now.

Please don't defend American Businesses who refuse to acknowledge Australian Automotive brilliance

I still respect you comments and input.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Group C that so many recall as the 'good old days' featured two-door sports coupes (RX-7, 635CSi & Camaro). By and large it does not matter whether they are GTs or not. Group A's disenchantment was that there was no place for a Falcon V8 and that the Commodore was not competitive.

.

Going a bit off-topic, but looking at it from the UK, I always reckoned Australia maybe went to Group A a year too late. The initial Group A Commodore in 1985 wasn't anything like a fully developed Group A package compared to the European cars, but by 86, certainly on the evidence of the Brock and Grice cars that came over here to run the ETCC, the VK was pretty much on the pace- what they lacked wasn't speed, but reliability and luck..

Of course, the next year Ford and BMW moved the whole game on with the Sierra Cosworth and M3 and everything else was obselete overnight...

[racer69]

86-87 were the years that showed what Group A could produce (in Australia at least), there were plenty of different cars doing the winning (one wonders how the Commodore's would have gone in the 1987 ATCC had they run the races the same distances as in 1986).

Would have been interesting to see how a normally-aspirated Group A could have developed (same with Group B)......

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Group C that so many recall as the 'good old days' featured two-door sports coupes (RX-7, 635CSi & Camaro). By and large it does not matter whether they are GTs or not. Group A's dis enchantment was that there was no place for a Falcon V8 and that the Commodore was not competitive.

Group C was a basket case by the end of 1984, the ruleset had run its course & really only Holden & Nissan (in my opinion) would have stuck with it had the rules continued.

There was no place for a Falcon V8 fullstop, they weren't building them. If they hadn't brought it back with the EB we'd have likely had a very different ruleset for 1993

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What do people remember about Group C? The ole 351 and the Commodore. I don't hear any wistful memories about the 635i or the RX-7.

You need to listen abit harder, there's plenty of people who have fond memories of the other marques, like the Bluebirds and the Camaro's....even the Mazda's had a good following, they were as popular as the Commodore's (entrants wise).

AMC even deems them worthy of inclusion in their magazine (at a later date admittedly)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Moutainstar, A lot of people remember Groups A and C quite fondly no matter what the gospel according to TC is. The Biantes out draw V8SC at Eastern Creek.
V8SC WAS a successful product, but it it losing manufacturer and sponsor support as it becomes increasing irrelevent.
It certainly isn't equal opportunity, it's a franchise thing sold and controlled by an entertainment company.
It isn't a "freak enviro science project" and that is one of the reasons many sponsors don't want it as part of their image.
Loud and stinky yes, but to keep the racing close they have to adopt the NASCAR trick of contrived yellws and SCs.
GT could be popular to watch but the egos involved will nip that in the bud.
Our vproblem is what will be Australia's premier racing class when V8SC implodes. Someone should be developing it now.
Showroom stock? Sports or GT? maybe GP2?

Group C and A had their shining moments but both were lumbered with excessive politicking from manufacturers and excessive bureaucracy from CAMS.

I don't see how it is suddenly a failure when tv ratings and crowds have stayed the same. The Hamilton round earlier this year is a good example as a success.

If production car racing was wanted it already exists and so far people haven't stormed the barricades to see it.

GT could hold potential if properly promoted.

GP2? No.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Mountainstar, I respect you input in all forums, but I will remind you each Holden that leaves our shores is either Chev or recently Pontiac. Yes are standards might be high, but thats because we make better cars.
Worlds faster Four Door Sedan - Ford XY GTHO- Yanks Nil

Nothing personal, but USA is full of itself and the rest of the World has caught up and passing. My main point is that every thing Holden and Ford Aust do has to be signed of by bogan yanks who are still playing with drum brakes. The new boss of Holden is crying poor, see Herald Sun, wanting our Govt to look after them. Yet the Parent company keeps cutting. If I was PM of Aus I would tell him politely.that there is an airport down road, a plane is leaving for Detroit now.

Please don't defend American Businesses who refuse to acknowledge Australian Automotive brilliance

I still respect you comments and input.

Every Holden that leaves the shores is a Pontiac or Chev because in the case of the USA we already have too many GM brands. In fact they are looking to cut another brand or two because there are too many.

I can't see how we are refusing to acknowledge Australian Automotive Brilliance when we are buying all the Pontiac G8s we can!!!!!! Plus the ute is coming next year as well and Ford is considering the Falcon platform as a replacement for the Crown Vic/Town Car rear wheel drive cars!

I could sit and here and point out all the inadequacies of Australia, but I'm not going to do that.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by racer69

You need to listen abit harder, there's plenty of people who have fond memories of the other marques, like the Bluebirds and the Camaro's....even the Mazda's had a good following, they were as popular as the Commodore's (entrants wise).

AMC even deems them worthy of inclusion in their magazine (at a later date admittedly)

I'm glad to see AMC is going to cover those cars in the future. I don't have any problem with them, but the general public I don't believe remembers them much. That's my opinion.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What do people remember about Group C? The ole 351 and the Commodore. I don't hear any wistful memories about the 635i or the RX-7.

I do. A lot. And saying that people only remember the Commies is a bit self-deceiving because the Commies did not go away under Group A. They just did not have good budget and were slow.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It seems people forget V8 Supercars is a very successful product and has a an excellent developmental series as well. I don't see the need to change a successful product. V8 Supercars is a not an equal opportunity race series...

Maybe you should run the series as VESA seem not to be satisfied with their current level of success. If you could convince them to stay the course and not publish third manufacturers speculatives every 18 months then there wouldn't be the debate you seem to think is unneccessary.

And stating that the public would 'storm the barriers' to see GT or Production cars is just niave because you know its just not the same without the name drivers. Remember AVESCO's original publicity - Stars and Cars. You're ignoring half that statement.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by racer69

Group C was a basket case by the end of 1984, the ruleset had run its course & really only Holden & Nissan (in my opinion) would have stuck with it had the rules continued.

Of course it was. Doesn't stop people fondly remembering them. I'm not saying Group A was a bad idea. Just saying why the pop stopped supporting it.

Originally Posted by racer69

There was no place for a Falcon V8 fullstop, they weren't building them.

So? The public wanted them. That's what I was saying. Both Super Touring and NASCAR (and V8 touring cars from which V8 Supercar evolved) had regs which allowed engines which do not appear in production models. If some form of similar exemption had been created for a Falcon V8 then we might still have Group A today. Before anyone brings up the Nissan GT-R it needs to be pointed out that after 1987 the Commodores almost always had severe budget restrictions compared to the Sierra and GT-R teams. Gibson Motor Sport had the best budget ever seen. By a wide margin. Who knows how well a Commodore or Falcon Group A team that was properly funded might have gone. Certainly the one XE Group A Falcon built certainly seemed to be a huge weapon of a race car, in the right hands and the right funds...

[nomad_n]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Looking good for the 888 Camry then.....

Well t888 and other teams would be stupid not to go to another manufacuter i.e. Toyota. Skaife has been quoted in this weeks AA that he welcomes another maufacuter (excuse the spelling), and he said the time is right for it to come in............. Watch this space as they say

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Of course it was. Doesn't stop people fondly remembering them. I'm not saying Group A was a bad idea. Just saying why the pop stopped supporting it.



So? The public wanted them. That's what I was saying. Both Super Touring and NASCAR (and V8 touring cars from which V8 Supercar evolved) had regs which allowed engines which do not appear in production models. If some form of similar exemption had been created for a Falcon V8 then we might still have Group A today. Before anyone brings up the Nissan GT-R it needs to be pointed out that after 1987 the Commodores almost always had severe budget restrictions compared to the Sierra and GT-R teams. Gibson Motor Sport had the best budget ever seen. By a wide margin. Who knows how well a Commodore or Falcon Group A team that was properly funded might have gone. Certainly the one XE Group A Falcon built certainly seemed to be a huge weapon of a race car, in the right hands and the right funds...

I can't remember a XE Group A Falcon. Who built it? Who was the driver? What livery and sponsorship did it have? Anyone with photos?

[mac]

Originally Posted by nomad_n

Skaife has been quoted in this weeks AA that he welcomes another maufacuter (excuse the spelling), and he said the time is right for it to come in............. Watch this space as they say

Well, if Skaife and Holden say it's time for Toyota to enter the V8s...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I can't remember a XE Group A Falcon. Who built it? Who was the driver? What livery and sponsorship did it have? Anyone with photos?

It's the one to the far right, if you needed a hint, lol.