[BTCC] Vauxhall confirms BTCC withdrawal at end of season

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by kristof14

Going back to the idea of seeing Chevrolet come in to replace Vauxhall, this seems a viable option, the cars are already being developed within the WTCC budget, all they need is the cost of running the cars, surely a massive saving over the amount of funding that went to Vauxhall whilst still maintaining a presence?

Well, Vauxhall cars were already developed, too. I don't think Chevy could use the Cruzes, they'd rather give them away at the end of the season when they build the new ones for 2010 to make some money. Surely Rml can do something privately like with Mat Jackson, but I doubt that GM will pull out with a brand and put the money back in with a new one(even if it would take less money, as you said). It wouldn't make sense to run works Lacettis in Britain and works Cruzes in the Wtcc, because if they do then which model are they putting forward?
Having a works team is not just about getting the cars to the track, you have to do test days to get the drivers acquainted to the cars, you have to pay for the drivers, you have to replace the worn out parts, repair the cars if you destroy them, buy spaces in the national media in order to make the best out of your effort... It's true, the cars are already there, but with the Dunlop tires you have to find new solutions, which you can only do by testing, testing and testing. And that means money, money, money.
So, it wouldn't be an easy thing to put the Chevys in.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I think people spend too much time worried about the manufacturers. I think the key focus should be putting cars out there people actually want to turn up and watch at the circuit and that race drivers want to race. Then you'll get the manufacturers and get the manufacturers to conform to your rules not theirs.

When you let the manufacturers have their head they boom/bust series and as of right now it's a fringe series only the hardcore fans watch.

I don't want to watch S2000. I've tried. I've watched STCC, WTCC and BTCC races and I can't get into it. I'm not spending my money to fly over to Europe either to attend a race meeting. I'd rather go to New Zealand and watch the NZV8's.

Well, I don't want to imagine what would happen if Ford and Holden pull out of the australian V8.
Also, manufacturers are very powerful, they have contacts with the media, they can move thousands of people (employees, customers) that would turn up to watch the show and so on. Surely a direct involvement from a manufacturer makes a championship more prestigeous, it's like the icing on the cake. Having said that, of course what you say is correct, we need to get the people into the championships both in and out of the track. You will hardly get an FIA title if you don't have manufacturers putting their effort in, though

[touringlegend]

Autosport this week says Giovanardi wants to stay with Triple Eight and will wait to see what their plans are before deciding what to do. He also alludes to doubts over Chevrolet and Seats WTCC participation next year so he's obviously very aware that at the end of the year there may be a lot of drivers available to Triple Eight.

The article also mentioned that Kia reps were at Thruxton as guests of Triple Eight. At a time when the historical large car companies are having trouble I think Kia would be very smart to get into the BTCC especially with Triple Eight.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

He also alludes to doubts over Chevrolet and Seats WTCC participation next year so he's obviously very aware that at the end of the year there may be a lot of drivers available to Triple Eight.

I would bet good money that SEAT and BMW will exit the WTCC at the end of this year... and Chevrolet are obviously cognisant of what's happening with the pair of them. RML's involvement in this year's BTCC is clearly no coincidence.

[helterskelter]

Which might also be the reason why SEAT haven't put the Exeo forward. If they pull out, maybe BMW stay in as there's not the reason why they might leave anymore. BMW need to sell racing cars, F1 is not enough IMO. But they might also pull out anyway and focus on ALMS with the new M3.
And yes, you might be right about Chevy, but if they're pulling out then why bother building a new car?

[werner]

At Chevy, some decisions today might have less to do with the good of the company in let's say a year or 2, but to make the firm able to survive the next month. Paying for a racingteam might not be a good idea if it makes you unable to pay for salaries and supplies, even when you have new, competitive racecars that would be very effective marketingtools.

[Speed-King]

If Seat stay in WTCC BMW have a reason to get out, because they are not competitive against the diesels. If Seat leaves, BMW have no credible opposition and get out as well. Catch 22 there.

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

And yes, you might be right about Chevy, but if they're pulling out then why bother building a new car?

You may find that in Chevrolet's case the design, build and WTCC campaign for the Cruze was signed off some time ago.

The fact a lot of deals were signed before the extent of the current financial climate was apparent could also be a reason that Vauxhall are still in the BTCC this year.

[helterskelter]

Yes, but still it would be a pity to waste the resources invested in developing a new car by pulling out the next year. I would find it a poor management thing, but of course I don't know the details of it.
Touringlegend, you're absolutely right IMO about the reason why Vauxhall is still in the championship.
Speed-King, I think that's too much of an easy way to describe the situation. BMW lost against Alfa but didn't pull out in the past, so maybe Seat is not the actual reason why they would quit. TBH I can't see a World Championship without BMW and Seat.

[Speed-King]

Speed-King, I think that's too much of an easy way to describe the situation. BMW lost against Alfa but didn't pull out in the past,

When BMW lost against Alfa they lost fair and square against a team that used the same type of engine as them and BMW had - if at all - an unfair advantage themselves due to their RWD.
Against the Seat Diesels they can easily argue that they lost due to political reasons and were not allowed to win by the FIA.

[the sniper]

Are we to assume that SEAT's plans to switch to the Audi A4 have now been dropped...?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by the sniper

Are we to assume that SEAT's plans to switch to the Audi A4 have now been dropped...?

I seem to recall that in an interview with TCT Jaime Puig said it was interesting for them to develop the new Exeo model. Is the fact that they actually didn't develop it preluding to a pull out?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

When BMW lost against Alfa they lost fair and square against a team that used the same type of engine as them and BMW had - if at all - an unfair advantage themselves due to their RWD.
Against the Seat Diesels they can easily argue that they lost due to political reasons and were not allowed to win by the FIA.

True, Alfa were stronger that year and BMW accepted the defeat. This time things are quite different. If only they could show Seat how strong they would be with a diesel engine on without having commercial troubles...

[chunterer]

But I would've thought that BMW will be keeping a close eye on the performance of the GT2 M3 and the GT3 Allpina 6 with a view to 'supporting' more customers for those cars next year?

The more I see it and see what a great concept it is, GT3 racing is becoming highly attractivre to the 'prestige' makes who otherwise were doing/ might have plumped for touring cars as potentially cheaper and more marketable proposition?

I wonder if we'll see an AMG tuned GT3 Merc Coupe entering GT3 soon to take on old rivals BMW and Audi, or even the revamped GT1 classs instead of Touring cars like DTM etc?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But I would've thought that BMW will be keeping a close eye on the performance of the GT2 M3 and the GT3 Allpina 6 with a view to 'supporting' more customers for those cars next year?

The new M3 is the core interest of BMW at the moment, commercially. They will sell those racing cars all around the world, as the GT market is larger than the TC's.
BMW's philosophy is to fund the works cars by selling the cars to the customers, which is the base for not letting the diesel in the championship.

[Speed-King]

Hmm, I am not sure the market for GT2 cars is bigger than for S2000 touring cars. If it were a GT3 I would agree, but as it is now, there are only half a dozen (FIA GT, LMS, GT Open, Italian and Spanish GT, ALMS) series left where you can race a GT2 and the Porsches and Ferraris are the weapons of choice there, whereas BMW is the clear outsider. I don't expect them to sell more than a dozen of those cars if they go ever on sale at all.

[davyboy]

We're miles off topic here with this one, but I think you guys are on the right track. Porsche have turned motorsport into a profit making business by selling cars, parts and technical assistance to customers. If you read this week's Autosport, you'd see that Nissan plans to take a similar approach with the GTR, albeit their intention is not to make profit [though not to loose money either]. Beyond F1, I see this is the only way the motorsport departments of manufacturers can justify what they do.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Hmm, I am not sure the market for GT2 cars is bigger than for S2000 touring cars. If it were a GT3 I would agree, but as it is now, there are only half a dozen (FIA GT, LMS, GT Open, Italian and Spanish GT, ALMS) series left where you can race a GT2 and the Porsches and Ferraris are the weapons of choice there, whereas BMW is the clear outsider. I don't expect them to sell more than a dozen of those cars if they go ever on sale at all.

If the car proves fast, they will sell much more than that. From what I've heard from my mates @ BMW they believe the car is fast. We'll see...

[medius]

If BMW aren't winning in the WTCC, they don't have a lot of incentive to continue. They make cars in the mid to luxury end of the market, and with the 320si, they are aiming for the young executive or wealthy family man. When Alfa were competing, the 156 and 159 were also in that sort of target market. And to a lesser degree, the Volvo S60 and Honda Accord.

Now, the Leon is a hot hatch, and the Cruze is a sort-of budget family car, buyers of these aren't really what BMW are aiming to lure into their showrooms. Whereas an M3 could take customers from the R8 or 911.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by medius

If BMW aren't winning in the WTCC, they don't have a lot of incentive to continue. They make cars in the mid to luxury end of the market, and with the 320si, they are aiming for the young executive or wealthy family man. When Alfa were competing, the 156 and 159 were also in that sort of target market. And to a lesser degree, the Volvo S60 and Honda Accord.

Now, the Leon is a hot hatch, and the Cruze is a sort-of budget family car, buyers of these aren't really what BMW are aiming to lure into their showrooms. Whereas an M3 could take customers from the R8 or 911.

The 3 series is THE BMW touring car. From the Naspetti days on. And they always competed against Alfa (155, 156 and 156 GTA), Audi (A4quattro), Opel (Vectra), Renault (Laguna), and I'm only talking about the old Supertouring. I guess that, rather than seeing it like this, BMW see Wtcc as a way to give the 3series brand even more awareness. I don't understand how the target of the Cruze and of the Leon can affect the target of BMW. The WTCC weekends are used to invite old and new customers in, guests, showroom owners, dealers and whatever else. It's not a problem of market segment clash, it's a sportive and image problem, cause they're not winning because they are racing against the TDi who has a stronger engine.

[Moneyseeker]

Chevrolet went in to the WTCC to establish the 'new' brand and dispell the old Daewoo perceptions, ditto SEAT to emphasis their sporty credentials - you could argue that SEAT have achieved this and established their FR sub brand.

BMW probably find themselves in a series that they didn't imagine would shape up as it has - racing against SEAT hatchbacks, budget Chevrolets and Lada's and as such I'm not sure what it now brings to BMW.

The 'danger' for premium brands in touring cars is that the more open regs allow for a wide range of cars to enter and all of a sudden millions of euro's of investment end up with the brand out of position. GT's is a safer bet as it is largely only going to attract premium manufacturers of similar price point cars.

[werner]

Well, BMW might not be entirely happy with the segment of their competitors in WTCC, they would still be foolisch to pull back, since they make money by selling S2000-cars. Their efforts in the WTCC are not only advertisements for consumers to buy a BMW roadcar, but also for raceteams to buy a 320si-racecar.
They may not need a 5-car operation for that though, so it might be sensible for them to cut their efforts to a 3-car team. Especially since it will help their own customers in the WTCC with less competitors, and due to the current weightrules, perhaps a lighter car.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

Well, BMW might not be entirely happy with the segment of their competitors in WTCC, they would still be foolisch to pull back, since they make money by selling S2000-cars. Their efforts in the WTCC are not only advertisements for consumers to buy a BMW roadcar, but also for raceteams to buy a 320si-racecar.
They may not need a 5-car operation for that though, so it might be sensible for them to cut their efforts to a 3-car team. Especially since it will help their own customers in the WTCC with less competitors, and due to the current weightrules, perhaps a lighter car.

Absolutely correct. So will be with GT.
You mean you'd dismiss ROAL?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Chevrolet went in to the WTCC to establish the 'new' brand and dispell the old Daewoo perceptions, ditto SEAT to emphasis their sporty credentials - you could argue that SEAT have achieved this and established their FR sub brand.

BMW probably find themselves in a series that they didn't imagine would shape up as it has - racing against SEAT hatchbacks, budget Chevrolets and Lada's and as such I'm not sure what it now brings to BMW.

The 'danger' for premium brands in touring cars is that the more open regs allow for a wide range of cars to enter and all of a sudden millions of euro's of investment end up with the brand out of position. GT's is a safer bet as it is largely only going to attract premium manufacturers of similar price point cars.

The point is not racing against similar cars, it's getting a way to show the 3 series in a World championship, which has thousands of followers, and make the cars look as attractive as possible. Talking with Alex Zanardi on the subject, he said that BMW are proud to go out with a car that is very similar to the road version (remember the re-styling of the Wtcc cars according to the new look of the 3 series), while Leons, Lacettis and Accords were pretty different from the ones we see everyday in the streets of our hometowns. I think that BMW are adopting that kind of strategy. If they pull out, the reason won't be that they're racing against hatckbacks.

[werner]

If I were Mario Theissen, I would definitely consider that. They have not delivered much in terms of performance compared to the other teams. I'm sure offcourse that they would be very welcome as a customer team.
OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if ROAL is only a sort of semi-factory team, with less support than Schnitzer. I suspect RBM to be partly self-funding as well.

I think the BMW-motorsportdepartment is very capable of builing S-2000's, GT2's and GT 4's at the same time. And if not, they have several connections that are capable of helping with the development and building of those racecars.