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27 Aug 2009, 11:19 (Ref:2529165)
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#101 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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27 Aug 2009, 15:10 (Ref:2529320)
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#102 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,699
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Its about time the whole book was rewritten from cover to cover, a monumental task yes but essencial and I would suggest when and if the task is undertaken they ask for feedback from all interested parties before going to print. In this internet age a mass proof reading by all licences holders and interested parties would be very simple so use the technology that we all have now and sort it once and for all.
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__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
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27 Aug 2009, 20:47 (Ref:2529505)
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#103 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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Quote:
I would be very interested to know which of the maufactures make a production based car with the vents that we are talking about ie not specials or LeMans or group C cars etc. |
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27 Aug 2009, 20:58 (Ref:2529520)
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#104 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,699
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I must say and having written a set of regs for a championship I was always under the impression that SR's could overide parts of the Bluebook.
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__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
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27 Aug 2009, 21:29 (Ref:2529563)
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#105 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
BMW 320i Ferrari 308GTB Fiat X19 Lotus Esprit Lancia Stratos Turbo Lancia Beta Montecarlo Ligier JS2 Mazda RX7 Porsche 930/935 Porsche 911 SC Porsche RSR Triumph TR8 Vauxhall Magnum/Firenza Baby and Big Bertha Zakspeed Ford Capri Zakspeed Ford Escort The Radical is also a road car, as was the Porsche 962 and the Jaguar XK220 I am sure there are others.... |
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27 Aug 2009, 21:33 (Ref:2529569)
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#106 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
The lighting regs you mention do come under the mandatory section of the Blue Book but are given a specific exception: 20. Electrical Systems • Have any wet batteries in driver/passenger compartment enclosed in a securely located leakproof container. • Have batteries duly protected to exclude leakage of acid and to protect terminals from short circuiting and producing sparks. • With the exception of racing cars be equipped with battery, generator, self-starter, side, tail, and brake lights. All this equipment to be in normal working order. Exceptionally when taking part in an event held totally off the public highway, need not comply with DoT Statutory Requirements regarding lighting or horn. • With the exception of racing cars, or cars of periods A to C, have headlights in normal working order with glasses of minimum 182.5 sq cm each unless SRs permit their removal. |
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27 Aug 2009, 21:52 (Ref:2529585)
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#107 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,699
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No you are right Pheonix safety stuff is mandatory but we did manage to be allowed to run a fuel additive in the SR's as I recollect. Things may have changed on that now though.
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__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter!
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28 Aug 2009, 06:03 (Ref:2529680)
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#108 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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Below are picture of the first 4 cars you mention, I dont see the vents that we are talking about?
    Also randomly selected a few others and again cant see the vents   (and the slot in that one is covered by the rad I believe and therefore the wheel is still covered
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28 Aug 2009, 08:56 (Ref:2529753)
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#110 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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And some more:
Ascari http://www.britishgt.com/content/news/428_1.jpg Another Lotus http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-conte...394995_alt.jpg Morgan http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagam...3/IMG_0068.jpg Maserati http://www.automotodrombrno.cz/Uploa...7/p1350795.jpg Ginetta http://www.oliverbryant.com/main/ima...on_gt_09_3.jpg ... that should do for now |
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28 Aug 2009, 11:51 (Ref:2529861)
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#111 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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Quote:
Just because you improve (or not as the case maybe) on the manufacturers design doesnt make it acceptable. All the race cars in the pictures were obviously legal in one race or another but just because they fit in with the SR's of one championship doesnt give them free entry into everything. You do seem to throw up as many examples as possible, which is great but they seem to have no validity and if the powers that be are reading this (which im sure they are) they are probably laughing, there seems to be no structure or reason to your argument over the rules. If you expect the MSA to listen you need to have a well presented case not just loads of pictures of cars that you think dont fit a specific class or rule. Could you please give the championships that the cars you have listed run in (uk racing to MSA rules not FIA as that is not the current focus). Thanks Anna |
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28 Aug 2009, 14:28 (Ref:2529940)
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#112 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,815
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Quote:
Just because they didn't fail scrutineering or weren't protested doesn't make them legal.... look at any FIA Historic grid. Are you MSA? |
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__________________
a salary slave no more...
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28 Aug 2009, 14:41 (Ref:2529948)
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#113 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
The common link between these cars is that they are all modified production cars that have been sold for use on the road. Indeed, some of the cars as sold for use on the road had the vents/gaps that I am talking about - they weren't just added for racing purposes. Hence my inclusio of pictures of such cars as they left the factory for the showroom, or on the road. In fact to blank them off could have serious safety issues, as they prevent the front from lifting at high speed. All racing cars of this genus - including Clio Cup or LMA as you mentioned - are modified to some extent, so I don't think the degree of modification comes into it. It is simply a matter of is this regulation and the exceptions within it meant to cover cars that race, or a very narrow definition of racing cars as single seaters. OK, I thought that the more examples I used the more obvious it would be how wide the problem is and for how long it has been going on. I guess just one example will do: Richard Chamberlain's Porsche 935K in the Porsche Open. No, I have to mention Radicals also, though I'm not sure of the title of the series/championship. I am keen too race one of the cars listed above - that is my interest. Can you return the compliment by declaring your interest? As you seem to be defending this particular MSA regulation fairly strenuously, I'm obviously keen to know why. Are you MSA? Finally, maybe you could help me tidy up my presentation of the case before I put it to the MSA? I would welcome your input. Last edited by phoenix; 28 Aug 2009 at 15:11. |
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28 Aug 2009, 14:50 (Ref:2529959)
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#114 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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28 Aug 2009, 15:21 (Ref:2529980)
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#115 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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In answer to the question, I have no links what ever to the MSA although I did used to hold a comp license. I would like to think im playing more of a devils advocate role, as if we throw loads of bits and pieces on no one will take any notice as its very fragmented and lacks focus.
The championship regs can alter the MSA blue book, as the champioship regs are also approved by the MSA as I previously said. As we have already mentioned the LMA saloons I have just had a quick look at the regs and the following is an extract from the technical section (section 5 for those who wish to look) Quote:
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28 Aug 2009, 16:15 (Ref:2529998)
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#116 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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Quote:
The main problem in the racers forum is that a thread starts with half a story everyone jumps on the band wagon paints everyone and everything to be wrong and then when the true information comes out it is discounted. In one of the threads you ask if John Symes would register, why would he? To come on listen to half truths and take a load of stick from people who seem to be manufacturing problems which dont exsist by reading half the blue book and not understanding it as a whole document. |
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28 Aug 2009, 17:04 (Ref:2530018)
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#117 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
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28 Aug 2009, 17:14 (Ref:2530024)
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#118 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
While you are looking at different regs, take a look at the Radical UK Cup regs too. I cannot see where the vents in the SR8 are permitted. Also there are a couple of Ferrari championships where the F40 and 308 GTB QV are permitted to race. "scrutineer" who gets in here says that the MSA regulation we are talking about cannot be over-ruled by SRs or Championship regulations - just as Safety regulations cannot be over-ruled. It is also clear than an eligibility scrutineer is subordinate to the Chief Scrutineer at a race meeting, and if the Chief Scrutineer says that vents are illegal, then that's that - or you have to race under protest if everyone is agreeable. You may have read elsewhere on the Forum about the Mosler being excluded from the British GT championship, despite the fact that the MSA had approved the regs and the championship organisers had intended in the wording of the regs to permit the Mosler to compete. The devil is in the detail, and in that case the detail ended up in a court battle. Maybe I am not as trusting as you are that if the championship regs say you can do it then you are fine. There is nothing I can find in the Blue Book that suggest that is the case - if there is please point me to the relevent section. I think probaly the fact that there is a debate about this means at least that a certain degree of clarity must be lacking in the Blue Book and the relationship of SRs/ and Championships to the Blue Book regs. You think one thing, SCRUTINEER thinks another thing, and I am somewhere in between the two of you. I don't think such confusion should exists, and even though scrutineer says the Blue Book is not open to interpretation, you obviously interpret it different to him. You can't both be right..... |
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28 Aug 2009, 17:32 (Ref:2530034)
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#119 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
And if you think I have written some half-truths in here I'd love to know what you think they are, so please tell me. |
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28 Aug 2009, 17:37 (Ref:2530041)
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#120 | |||||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have also had a look for the porsche regs, however they dont seem to have them online which is not much help. |
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28 Aug 2009, 17:54 (Ref:2530046)
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#121 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix Technical The following technical regulations are mandatory and apply to vehicles in all forms of competition (other than karting). In addition vehicles must comply with the appropriate Specific Technical Regulations. Where there are several regulations concerning any particular subject it shall be taken, as a general principle, that one does not override another unless specifically stated. Any technical regulation in the Specific Technical Regulations are additional to the Mandatory requirements of the Blue Book. i.e. they can be more stringent/more restrictive. This is not reversible - any further regs cannot relax the Blue Book Mandatory regulations. That could lead to anarchy! The Mandatory Blue Book regs never become subordinate to the Specific Technical Regulations or to SRs or Championship Regs. Non-mandatory regulations can be varied in SRs and Championship regs. But this is not in that category, I'm afraid. Forgive me for repeating myself, but you cannot over rule roll bar specifications, seat belts and a host of other Mandatory Blue Book regulations. |
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28 Aug 2009, 17:55 (Ref:2530048)
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#122 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 115
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28 Aug 2009, 17:56 (Ref:2530049)
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#123 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,714
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28 Aug 2009, 18:15 (Ref:2530058)
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#124 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
http://www.porscheclubmotorsport.co..../open/regs.asp I refer you to Page 146 of the Blue Book, which clearly states: Text shown in italics indicates a Regulation which may be amended in the SRs. So those are the only section so the Blue Book that can be amended by the SRs. C (b) 8 (h) has no text in itallics. It should be noted that any event run that ignores this - i.e. the Championship Regulations allow something that the Blue Book doesn't, is an illegal event in the eyes of the law of England and Wales - probably Scotland too - and the event insurance is automatically invalidated. |
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28 Aug 2009, 18:21 (Ref:2530061)
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#125 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,981
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Quote:
Technical The following technical regulations are mandatory Do you need an interpretation of "Mandatory" too? |
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