[V8ST12R02] Ruapuna - 7–8 Apr 2012

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Is this confirmed anywhere as the ST site has not been updated to show any changes. It seems strange that 2 leading drivers would be the first to be caught.

Go to the V8ST website and read the Points page VERY carefully

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

It seems they added a couple of warm up laps. I recall less on Saturday.

And re crowds seemed to me to by more at skope last year

Club officials say that is the biggest crowd they have EVER had.
Usually they allow cars to park on the banking so a small number of people make the place look full.The park was full of bodies.

RE the racing - Ruapuna seldom throws up a million passes per lap but from a technical point of view I thought the racing was superb. Relentless in fact.

Manfeild next tho. I suppose the complaint will be too many passes there since it would seem that this hopeless show can't do anything right

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Biggy G

Sorry for the double post, but just got Andre Heimgartners Race Report in my inbox, and some interesting tidbits, aparantly a clean sweep for Fabs:

"Johnny McIntyre who finished first got DQ'd for suspension irregularities."

and from Race 2

"Craig Baird who finished 3rd got DQ'd for caster irregularities."

McIntyre got a 50 point penalty, but nothing shows up against Baird. Have a look on the V8ST site, there are no DQ's at all.

[logy22]

John McIntyre
* 50 point penalty – suspension component not re-machined as required by Build Manual

[logy22]

Reason for penalty
http://www.speedstuff.co.nz/mcintyre...-infringement/

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by DX20VT

Hmm, maybe.

Wasn't it last year in NZV8's that Kayne Scott was disqualified for alomst the whole season with an irregularity found at round 5 of 6?

And wasn't this years championship winner found to have the same irregularity at Rd 6 of 6 last season handing a hollow victory to Mac-I-am?

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

And wasn't this years championship winner found to have the same irregularity at Rd 6 of 6 last season handing a hollow victory to Mac-I-am?

why is it a hollow victory if someone cheats their way out of a championship win?

[Jerico]

I thought Fogg lost the Championship to JM at hamilton before he lost the points for the engine that round? Anyway that engine thing was just a politcal beat up. Angus stirred the pot all weekend and then was done for the same thing. Funny as hell, but what was funnier half the ford field could have been done for the same thing. Now that would have been a bad look. What ever happened to old honest Inky's heads this year?????

[Jerico]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

why is it a hollow victory if someone cheats their way out of a championship win?

Because the irregularity had NO horsepower gain! If anything the reverse.

[flyingduck]

Jerico you are right but you need to remember rules are not policed if they make gains just if they are outside the rules or not. But Angus did make a big fool by getting caught for the same thing.

Interesting to hear from those in the know why ST said the changes needed to be made to the suspension.

Also I have seen no confirmation re the Baird caster issues was this just someone trolling.

Last but not least this incident shows why the board needs to be independent of owners and drivers in the series as both of these cars are owned by board members and not a good look having them caught cheating.

Mark Petch has done the good thing for the class and moved away from full ownership (I believe he may have a small holding in a team but I'm sure he can confirm or not) this allows all penalties to look fair.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Last but not least this incident shows why the board needs to be independent of owners and drivers in the series as both of these cars are owned by board members and not a good look having them caught cheating.

Strong word that "cheating" - to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

The Baird "caster" thing was just BS, and I think you'll find McIntyre's issue wasn't really a biggie at all; certainly not deliberate, or an advantage.

[flyingduck]

To cheat is the correct word advantage is something that doesn't matter

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheat

to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

As far as I am aware that is what he has done, no where does cheating mean you have to take an advantage, if you copy a wrong answer from someone else during a test you have cheated even if you changed the correct answer to the wrong one you have cheated.

So why did ST change the rules if it did nothing that seems very weird to change something that doesn't need to be changed. Or do ST just want to make teams waste time?

Would a board member not be aware of the changes and why they are needed?

They should be expected to have a higher level of knowledge than others.

[flyingduck]

Interested to hear more on the caster issue as well?
What was the BS all about?
Was it illegal?
Was punishment less due to the owner being on the board?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

To cheat is the correct word advantage is something that doesn't matter

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheat

to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

As far as I am aware that is what he has done, no where does cheating mean you have to take an advantage, if you copy a wrong answer from someone else during a test you have cheated even if you changed the correct answer to the wrong one you have cheated.

So why did ST change the rules if it did nothing that seems very weird to change something that doesn't need to be changed. Or do ST just want to make teams waste time?

Would a board member not be aware of the changes and why they are needed?

They should be expected to have a higher level of knowledge than others.

I think you have used the term "cheat" out of context there, your meaning would suggest that in a football game everytime there was a penalty that was cheating

in car racing everytime there was a penalty that would be cheating

that would suggest every driver out there is a cheat, because at some time they have broken a rule

it is the only one of the definitions on that link is so simple, every other meaning uses the word fraud deceit or dishonest in them

[on_to_it]

Oh come on flying duck! Use a real dictionary, not some US website. They can't even spell our language properly!

Gaining an advantage IS what matters in terms of breaking rules and that's what we're talking about here. Why else would you bother if there was nothing to gain?

As far as Bairds "caster" issue goes, it was posted that "Craig Baird who finished 3rd got DQ'd for caster irregularities." Well, there's no penalty whatsoever applied to his points, so how could he have been DQ'd? That's why I think it is BS.

You ask "Why change the rules if it did nothing" - That change could have been to improve the engineering in terms of geometry or to reduce a loading on a component, alleviate a stress point yada yada. Do you expect a brand new race car to be absolutely perfect and never need any refining whatsoever?

You say "Or do ST just want to make teams waste time?" You can't really be serious!

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Oh come on flying duck! Use a real dictionary, not some US website. They can't even spell our language properly!

Wow cutting remark our language should I pop it into Maori or Braille our other official languages for you

Gaining an advantage IS what matters in terms of breaking rules and that's what we're talking about here. Why else would you bother if there was nothing to gain?

Cheating is cheating you get caught breaking the rules you are cheating. How do we classify not performance enhancing,

As far as Bairds "caster" issue goes, it was posted that "Craig Baird who finished 3rd got DQ'd for caster irregularities." Well, there's no penalty whatsoever applied to his points, so how could he have been DQ'd? That's why I think it is BS.

I agree I can't see anything but we have some clued up people on this forum that can confirm things just not looking at a points table so why not get it from the horses mouth, maybe a protest has been held over to the next round

You ask "Why change the rules if it did nothing" - That change could have been to improve the engineering in terms of geometry or to reduce a loading on a component, alleviate a stress point yada yada. Do you expect a brand new race car to be absolutely perfect and never need any refining whatsoever?

So which is it and if the change is not enhancement is it safety, or making the playing field more level, thats why I asked to find out why it was changed not why could have it be changed.

You say "Or do ST just want to make teams waste time?" You can't really be serious!

Really people haven't changed things in motor sport for benefit of suppliers or because they just don't like a rule and now have the power to change it (this has happened before). I just think it's strange that a leading competitor and board member FORGOT to change something between rounds that was required by ST. Johnny runs to good a team for this to be true.

Hey but don't worry you can now run a car outside the rules in Super Tourers and not get a DQ

Don't worry Johnny your on the board so we will let you keep the series lead so how bout we only take 50 points off so you are still leading. (Not saying this happened at all but could look like it to those drivers not in the board room)

That's why team owners and drivers should not be on the board or if any just one rep from all teams are on the board.

answers above

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I think you have used the term "cheat" out of context there, your meaning would suggest that in a football game everytime there was a penalty that was cheating

in car racing everytime there was a penalty that would be cheating

that would suggest every driver out there is a cheat, because at some time they have broken a rule

it is the only one of the definitions on that link is so simple, every other meaning uses the word fraud deceit or dishonest in them

Most of the ones winning drivers are cheating or that's what all the other teams say. I have been part of champion teams and everyone of them has been labeled a cheat in some way or another.

You act like cheating is bad it's just bad when you get caught.

Ask the old timers how many cheats didn't get caught and some of the ways the old group A/Transam/formula Atlantic boys cheated was amazing. Would make a good thread for the old timers.

[on_to_it]

Well flyingduck, it looks to me you're now saying quite different things to your first post; I read that as a cross between a ****-take and an outright attack on a couple of drivers (and V8ST as well for good measure), so perhaps we'll just agree to disagree.

While this "board" thing you have a bee in your lid about is fine in theory, you try and make it work (and fund it) any other way in a small, privately owned business (although most only see a sporting series). Remember this whole ST concept was created by less then a few guys who invested significant amounts of their own time and money to turn their dream into a reality. I bet they live and breath this thing 24/7. Do you really think they are going to fund a board of independent directors to take control of their baby.

Some of your comments smell of tall-poppy-syndrome, and add nothing but niggle. I take my hat off to them for having the gonads to take it on and see it through, and I suspect, still funding it.

[Icarus_nz]

re the Baird castor/camber:
No conspiracy required where pure incompetance will suffice

[Jerico]

Further to the nvz8 irregularities, all the cylinders weren't machined the same, this was not premeditated cheating, if it was they would have machined all the cylinders illegally and not just two or three out of the eight. I am sure they wouldn't have machined them the way they did to make more horsepower, it just came down to a mistake by the engine builder who machined the heads incorrectly and this was not picked up by the teams. There were more of those heads in the field, other than just Scott's and Fogg's.

The Baird thing was not just BS there was a caster problem, but there was a mistake made in the writing up of the illegality, so it was thrown out, it had nothing to do with who owned the car!

[on_to_it]

Thanks Jerico. That points to some substance in the post I read, but I don't know why the poster said Baird was DQ'd. Do you know what the discrepancy was?

[Jerico]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Thanks Jerico. That points to some substance in the post I read, but I don't know why the poster said Baird was DQ'd. Do you know what the discrepancy was?

No sorry I don't. I am just going off what was said in pit lane that night, Caster and Camber both start with the letter 'C' ??? If the mistake wasn't made baird probably would have been DQ'd. You do have to make sure you dot all the i's and cross all the t's or it's out the door. I would say it would have been an honest mistake.

[on_to_it]

I think I've read in the V8ST tech specs the caster is fixed. If I'm right on that, changing the caster angle would require some effort. Maybe it was camber?

[Pseudonym]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

I think I've read in the V8ST tech specs the caster is fixed. If I'm right on that, changing the caster angle would require some effort. Maybe it was camber?

There is a Max. of 9.5 degrees of caster allowed by the regs. You have some freedom of adjustment as long as you dont go over the 9.5 deg. Bairds car had 9.8 degrees, when writing up the infringement the official wrote camber instead of caster, which has no maximum within the rules. By then car was out of park ferme and could not be proved etc. etc.
A lucky escape...

[flyingduck]

Well on to it most successful sports run with independence, Look at v8's in Aussie, NRL, AFL. Even the level 2 car champs in Aussie have an independent board so that the interests of all instead of the interests of the few are looked after.

Amazing that Baird has got away with one after all the talk of the NZV8/MNZ tech department now the ST have found how hard it can be to run a series and get it all right,

Who does do the tech policing for the ST?

By the way this is not mean't to belittle the ST class this is to try to make it better. They have done so many good things away from the track and in developing a great car (little hiccups aside). But the only independents I see are Mr Petch and Mr Abbott , all the others own cars in the series.