BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[GHOGH]

8 STs - might as well turn it into a drift session.

Ferrari 550 might work as a drift car.
http://youtu.be/NP5bprX8oX8

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Seriously Stu, please, please put your brain into gear before you write such post's.

Lastly whilst its very disappointing for all concerned, don't think that there wont be 3 Supertourers racers over the weekend well worth watching, some serious talent out there and at least 6 of the 8 drivers will be planing on winning, and rightly so when you look at the pedigree.

Mark, with all due respect, I do not appreciate the patronising tone of some of your recent replies to some of my posts. This is an open forum and everyones opinion is valid, including mine. In fact I will take time to answer a question you posed to me some time back that I did not answer. I said that I think the entry fee for punters should be free, or close to it. I still stand by that because, who in their right mind is going to fork out $50 - $60 for a weekend pass? if you want to bring the crowds back, then you have to make it financially viable for them. The current level of 'show' at these (and NZV8 meetings) is not that great to be honest, so why not advertise free entry and then work off selling merchandise and maybe getting something back from the food stalls. You have been in this game for donkeys years, I do genuinely appreciate some of the things you have done for motorsport in this country. We all know you have 'been there, done that' with just about all aspects of the game. You simply cannot replicate experience. But something has gone drastically wrong here....and for this particular series to survive, something has to change. Maybe the fact that NZST does not own any cars is a bad thing? Maybe if they bought a few (hell, there must be a few going cheap at the moment) then they could, in tough times, 'lend' them or lease them at a very cheap price to attract either drivers that have been and gone, or new ones wanting to get into the series. In fact I can't think of a better thing for the category to do. Instead of teams bringing in drivers for their test days, why doesn't the category itself offer 'free' or close to it, drives for some of these people? They would get to race them in anger (insurance would have to be there of course for any damage) and I think that would lure in a few more.
But I also can see the counter argument to that, which is teams whinging on about the fact that driver X got his/her drive dead cheap. But if you look at the big picture, which is the survival of the category, then maybe its worth looking at?

But I don't know, I really don't. You my friend are the expert here. You and a few others created this series and it was great. You and others then sold it to Ray (and yes I know how much for) and its just gone downhill since then. What has happened between the times that you were the CEO to today?

Now I have no doubt that once again I will get a 'pull your head in' type response from you, and that's fine. But as someone who is a newbie to the sport, it just rips me up seeing it go belly up like this. I was looking at some old FB posts from 2012-2013 last night and my god its a polar opposite to what we see now. If you had told me back then that at the start of 2015 we would see 8 cars, I would have said your dreaming.

Now don't get me wrong Mark, I am looking just at the state of affairs right now. I do have some confidence that the series will get its act together and form a NZ vs Aus type series for next season. Well I hope so anyway, for Rays sake. I wonder what his P+L reports look like right now?

And heres the rub, even if the TLX's joined up, or vice versa, right now we would have 13 cars on the grid. Even that is pretty rubbish compared to the times where their were 19 of these things blasting around NZ tracks and setting a new benchmark for this style of racing.

We hear all the time that it costs too much. Why does it cost so much? especially when you learn that a TLX is about the same, and the older TLs in their day were costing shedloads to prepare and run a half decent car. The series was always about cost saving, thus luring in all the big names from the NZV8's. Why have these people bolted?

And please Mark, I will repeat, all the above is with the utmost respect to you. I am no expert at all when it comes to the management side of racing, but people like you are, so people like you (and others) should be the ones that come up with the answers.

I do 100% agree however that the 3 ST races will be good. I am going to be there of course as it Andres last go, and he is genuinely a podium contender. In fact I think the only driver that could dislodge him will be Simon in the Smeg car, or D'Alberto.

[Ugy]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Mark, with all due respect, I do not appreciate the patronising tone of some of your recent replies to some of my posts. This is an open forum and everyones opinion is valid, including mine. In fact I will take time to answer a question you posed to me some time back that I did not answer. I said that I think the entry fee for punters should be free, or close to it. I still stand by that because, who in their right mind is going to fork out $50 - $60 for a weekend pass? if you want to bring the crowds back, then you have to make it financially viable for them. The current level of 'show' at these (and NZV8 meetings) is not that great to be honest, so why not advertise free entry and then work off selling merchandise and maybe getting something back from the food stalls. You have been in this game for donkeys years, I do genuinely appreciate some of the things you have done for motorsport in this country. We all know you have 'been there, done that' with just about all aspects of the game. You simply cannot replicate experience. But something has gone drastically wrong here....and for this particular series to survive, something has to change. Maybe the fact that NZST does not own any cars is a bad thing? Maybe if they bought a few (hell, there must be a few going cheap at the moment) then they could, in tough times, 'lend' them or lease them at a very cheap price to attract either drivers that have been and gone, or new ones wanting to get into the series. In fact I can't think of a better thing for the category to do. Instead of teams bringing in drivers for their test days, why doesn't the category itself offer 'free' or close to it, drives for some of these people? They would get to race them in anger (insurance would have to be there of course for any damage) and I think that would lure in a few more.
But I also can see the counter argument to that, which is teams whinging on about the fact that driver X got his/her drive dead cheap. But if you look at the big picture, which is the survival of the category, then maybe its worth looking at?

But I don't know, I really don't. You my friend are the expert here. You and a few others created this series and it was great. You and others then sold it to Ray (and yes I know how much for) and its just gone downhill since then. What has happened between the times that you were the CEO to today?

Now I have no doubt that once again I will get a 'pull your head in' type response from you, and that's fine. But as someone who is a newbie to the sport, it just rips me up seeing it go belly up like this. I was looking at some old FB posts from 2012-2013 last night and my god its a polar opposite to what we see now. If you had told me back then that at the start of 2015 we would see 8 cars, I would have said your dreaming.

Now don't get me wrong Mark, I am looking just at the state of affairs right now. I do have some confidence that the series will get its act together and form a NZ vs Aus type series for next season. Well I hope so anyway, for Rays sake. I wonder what his P+L reports look like right now?

And heres the rub, even if the TLX's joined up, or vice versa, right now we would have 13 cars on the grid. Even that is pretty rubbish compared to the times where their were 19 of these things blasting around NZ tracks and setting a new benchmark for this style of racing.

We hear all the time that it costs too much. Why does it cost so much? especially when you learn that a TLX is about the same, and the older TLs in their day were costing shedloads to prepare and run a half decent car. The series was always about cost saving, thus luring in all the big names from the NZV8's. Why have these people bolted?

And please Mark, I will repeat, all the above is with the utmost respect to you. I am no expert at all when it comes to the management side of racing, but people like you are, so people like you (and others) should be the ones that come up with the answers.

I do 100% agree however that the 3 ST races will be good. I am going to be there of course as it Andres last go, and he is genuinely a podium contender. In fact I think the only driver that could dislodge him will be Simon in the Smeg car, or D'Alberto.

One thing i will say Stu, you certainly are a plodder

[promax]

Originally Posted by GHOGH

8 STs - might as well turn it into a drift session.

Ferrari 550 might work as a drift car.
http://youtu.be/NP5bprX8oX8

closer to home...

https://www.facebook.com/CamVernonSS...type=1&theater

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Mark, with all due respect, I do not appreciate the patronising tone of some of your recent replies to some of my posts. This is an open forum and everyones opinion is valid, including mine. In fact I will take time to answer a question you posed to me some time back that I did not answer. I said that I think the entry fee for punters should be free, or close to it. I still stand by that because, who in their right mind is going to fork out $50 - $60 for a weekend pass? if you want to bring the crowds back, then you have to make it financially viable for them. The current level of 'show' at these (and NZV8 meetings) is not that great to be honest, so why not advertise free entry and then work off selling merchandise and maybe getting something back from the food stalls. You have been in this game for donkeys years, I do genuinely appreciate some of the things you have done for motorsport in this country. We all know you have 'been there, done that' with just about all aspects of the game. You simply cannot replicate experience. But something has gone drastically wrong here....and for this particular series to survive, something has to change. Maybe the fact that NZST does not own any cars is a bad thing? Maybe if they bought a few (hell, there must be a few going cheap at the moment) then they could, in tough times, 'lend' them or lease them at a very cheap price to attract either drivers that have been and gone, or new ones wanting to get into the series. In fact I can't think of a better thing for the category to do. Instead of teams bringing in drivers for their test days, why doesn't the category itself offer 'free' or close to it, drives for some of these people? They would get to race them in anger (insurance would have to be there of course for any damage) and I think that would lure in a few more.
But I also can see the counter argument to that, which is teams whinging on about the fact that driver X got his/her drive dead cheap. But if you look at the big picture, which is the survival of the category, then maybe its worth looking at?

But I don't know, I really don't. You my friend are the expert here. You and a few others created this series and it was great. You and others then sold it to Ray (and yes I know how much for) and its just gone downhill since then. What has happened between the times that you were the CEO to today?

Now I have no doubt that once again I will get a 'pull your head in' type response from you, and that's fine. But as someone who is a newbie to the sport, it just rips me up seeing it go belly up like this. I was looking at some old FB posts from 2012-2013 last night and my god its a polar opposite to what we see now. If you had told me back then that at the start of 2015 we would see 8 cars, I would have said your dreaming.

Now don't get me wrong Mark, I am looking just at the state of affairs right now. I do have some confidence that the series will get its act together and form a NZ vs Aus type series for next season. Well I hope so anyway, for Rays sake. I wonder what his P+L reports look like right now?

And heres the rub, even if the TLX's joined up, or vice versa, right now we would have 13 cars on the grid. Even that is pretty rubbish compared to the times where their were 19 of these things blasting around NZ tracks and setting a new benchmark for this style of racing.

We hear all the time that it costs too much. Why does it cost so much? especially when you learn that a TLX is about the same, and the older TLs in their day were costing shedloads to prepare and run a half decent car. The series was always about cost saving, thus luring in all the big names from the NZV8's. Why have these people bolted?

And please Mark, I will repeat, all the above is with the utmost respect to you. I am no expert at all when it comes to the management side of racing, but people like you are, so people like you (and others) should be the ones that come up with the answers.

I do 100% agree however that the 3 ST races will be good. I am going to be there of course as it Andres last go, and he is genuinely a podium contender. In fact I think the only driver that could dislodge him will be Simon in the Smeg car, or D'Alberto.

Stu, what 'possessed' you to post that crap about the organisers [Supertourers] should "lend people cars" in the first place.

If that offends you, so be it, don't send me a christmas card, because if you just stop and think about it, my comment has nothing to doing with stifling your opinion which you and everybody else [including the haters] are entitled to. You claim you know what we were paid for our share's so you should also know that Ray does not own any cars so who is that's going to "lend these car's" and on what basis.

All of us car owners, myself included, are doing our very best to help put people in cars at very reasonable cost, but the fact is that there are no free lunches and that is the issue in a nut shell.

Even TRS has two empty seat's in their brand new single seater because they ran out of people with the readies. The same with the 86 Series, built some 23 car's, sold 8!


Back to ST cars, don't discount Dominic Story, second by a whisker to Simon at Puke, and what about Simon's brother Mitch? there will be no quarter given between that battle as well, so some great racing coming up this weekend, not as in "thick and Fast" but as in Fast, rubbing is racing fashion.

Bring it on!

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Ugy

One thing i will say Stu, you certainly are a plodder

Haha...I didn't know what a plodder was until about 5 minutes ago, and then I googled it. Yes it probably does sum me up to a point. However, sometimes 'plonker' may be more fitting

I mean well though, and like I say, I am still dumbfounded by the lack of entries.

Where are M2, where is the Ninkranz car? (sp?), what happened to Eddie Bell, Andy Booth, IMS, TMG...the list goes on.

And as Mark has kindly pointed out I am clearly someone who knows nothing about the sport. Cheers for the confirmation of what I already knew But I do know about marketing, its been part of my job for the last 15 or so years. And what I see the category doing with regards to proper, targeted marketing is feeding the public a line of crap, and promising this that and everything. People are not dumb, and people will not bother turning up to an event that has been over-promised. I refer to the current billboards that I have seen, even their TV ads and FB cover photo which do not even feature cars/liveries that are current. Have a look at the new ST website and click on 'Drivers'. If I was a newbie to this particular category and wanted to take the family down this weekend, I would be expecting to see the 13 drivers that are currently listed. I'd also be pretty disappointed after paying for the pass, that alas only see 8/13 of them!! its not rocket science being honest with your audience....

Splitting hairs? probably....but this is how I see it, and imagine the general public are seeing it too. I guess all will be revealed when we turn up to HD on Saturday and Sunday.

Agree though, that Dom should be fast, he has a good car under him.

[Goat Boy]

If money is the issue (I presume drivers having to pay to drive or sponsors having to couch up $$$ rather than products) then I would blame the "Rock Star Economy." Someone should ask Graham Hart or Alan Gibbs to fund 20 cars on the grid like we had at the beginning...

[Shoreboy57]

Sorry, no matter how good a show 6 or 7 STs may put on, its not worth the bother, not after two great weekends at Hampton. I'll have a break then head to Rod's ranch for Leadfoot. The cars are the stars

[promax]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

If that offends you, so be it, don't send me an Easter egg,

fixed your post

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Stu, you of all people should know that NZ Supertourers does not own any car's, so who do you think should lend their cars for free???

Seriously Stu, please, please put your brain into gear before you write such post's.

Toyota and Ssangyong own race cars and they can lend cars to people because it's a manufacturer's Series. Which is why Kenny Smith is driving one of our SRS Actyon Sport Utes this weekend.

Lastly whilst its very disappointing for all concerned, don't think that there wont be 3 Supertourers racers over the weekend well worth watching, some serious talent out there and at least 6 of the 8 drivers will be planing on winning, and rightly so when you look at the pedigree.

Mark

Do you agree that the technical group was wrong in getting strang gaugues when the previous shift cut worked fine and the cut in the tunnel to get to it is a non issue. why waste money and development on a non issuie.

M3 and most holden teams need to complie with the mandatory spec radiator housing, is mitchs going to to be able to be run in the old cepe car?

technical guys need to go.

[BackSeat Driver]

Mitch Evans is in the ex Orix car (M3 - Manual car).
Should be all up to correct spec.

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by BackSeat Driver

Mitch Evans is in the ex Orix car (M3 - Manual car).
Should be all up to correct spec.

m3 supplied incorrect radiator housings and you had to buy the new v8st one. 8 cars no one is going to inforce rules.

[BackSeat Driver]

You are probably correct, as there is also no peer scruiteneering this round.

[Club racer]

A very interesting read this thread.

Have to say MP, your posts brought a smile to my face and a degree of admiration. Your resilience is laudable Petchy, but the reality - and let's face it REALITY is all that is actually counts - is that SuperTourers is a twitching corpse.

There will be seven cars this weekend - with Mitch on a one off appearance. No matter how much you polish it mate, six cars does not a successful series make! You know it, we know it, they know it.

There are many reasons for this. Financial costs are one as you said, but the management of the series has been dire, the treatment of the car owners mind-bogglingly bad and the business model fatally flawed from the outset.

More interesting to me is why the series has singularly failed to grab the attention of the masses, which I know was another worthy goal. Whilst the model - spec cars, evenly matched - was a worthy objective, the racing has been very dull indeed. It may float your boat, but it doesn't float the boat of even a minority of the fans that flock to Supercars. Good drivers for sure. BUT the cars are not exciting to watch, they are not noisy (The Protoype John De Veth drove in the demo sessions at the Festival sounded like a road car compared to most of the machinery on display...), they do not move around and passing is obviously difficult. They might be quick, but exciting they are not. And that matters Mark. Dale Mathers' Historic Muscle Car Trans Tasman Challenge at the Festival utterly blitzed every SuperTourer race I have seen (And I have seen most) for quantity, quality, noise, spectacle and racing. Fact I'm afraid. And those cars - as appreciating legitimate and accurate classics, arguably have more relevance in the market here in NZ that SuperTourers do. They certainly have more fans!

The bitter back biting and finger pointing amongst team owners in regard technical issues has also been as damaging as it was predictable with a bunch like that - but that in itself points squarely at poor management and poor leadership. Greg hasn't retired, he just got properly peed off with the way the series was run and the kindergarden squabbling that you all have to take some responsibility for. Its the same story for most of the team owners that have gone. They have just joined steady stream of fans and sponsors that have been dwindling since the very first round at Hampton Downs.

I quite like your ute series, and I like the V8 ute series, but they only run full time with SuperTourers because they can piggyback on the TV and buy it from them for $10k per round. Without that, I have no doubt neither series would run with them. Just about every class that has run with them on the support bill has been treated like dirt and that is why many have appeared only once or twice.

I have also read much comment over the past two years that TV3 would not cover boring racing with only a handful of cars. They say money talks, but I bet it's voice is becoming a bit annoying to the TV3 bods....eh?

Tell me, what chances would you give to a business that a) missed its target market, b) failed to create a new one c) let internal politics get utterly out of hand d) disenfranchised its own stakeholders and e) alienated potential and existing partners? Mark, you would give it 0 chance of survival and this is no different.

So am I pro NZV8s..? Nope. Not at all. Problems there are quite simple - not enough of them, no parity amongst themselves, no money to promote, a gun-ho arrogant attitude that rubs people up the wrong way (comes with the turf with these V8 types eh!!) and management that tells lie after lie until it starts believing them itself. I just feel sorry for some of the TL drivers - good blokes some of them, just racers like you and me.

For me - both series are as bad as the other and have been allowed to beat themselves and eachother to death with the help of dreadful management and zero governance from MSNZ. The whole of the sport has suffered (and is paying) and one can only hope everything SuperTourer and TLX disappears quietly off into the night very soon, along with the powers that be at MSNZ who have presided and contributed over three years to this sorry state of affairs.

Hope you can bully the new constitution through. That would be a good legacy to leave. But for me the quicker the V8 lot on both sides of the fence disappear, the better.

I didn't always feel like this either.....

[socram]

Good post club racer.

We had a MINIMUM of 44 cars on the grid at all six sessions at the Ganley Festival. Three bits of minor panel damage over three days and Bruce Manon overtaking the whole lot (43 cars) to win by a whisker. Feedback in writing (as well as the people I spoke to) would come again to watch. Amateurs - certainly. Cheapish cars - mainly, but bags of overtaking and three and four wide at times. I'd call that real racing.

I sincerely hoped that Super Tourers would fulfil all the promises and meet all the expectations, to give us something worth watching, but it hasn't happened, so sorry Mark, to a paying punter, it is no longer a draw card.

Just to put it in perspective, from our own race group:

1939 car laps raced (not counting warm ups or slowing down laps)
273 cars started over 1 practice and 5 x 8 lap scratch/handicap races
250 finished the full quota of laps

I'll be interested in seeing the numbers for the Super Tourers, given that they aren't even doing short 8 lap races. A few minutes on 'MyLaps' after the weekend may well give some interesting answers.

[Bill Brown]

Originally Posted by Club racer

A very interesting read this thread.

Have to say MP, your posts brought a smile to my face and a degree of admiration. Your resilience is laudable Petchy, but the reality - and let's face it REALITY is all that is actually counts - is that SuperTourers is a twitching corpse.

There will be seven cars this weekend - with Mitch on a one off appearance. No matter how much you polish it mate, six cars does not a successful series make! You know it, we know it, they know it.

There are many reasons for this. Financial costs are one as you said, but the management of the series has been dire, the treatment of the car owners mind-bogglingly bad and the business model fatally flawed from the outset.

More interesting to me is why the series has singularly failed to grab the attention of the masses, which I know was another worthy goal. Whilst the model - spec cars, evenly matched - was a worthy objective, the racing has been very dull indeed. It may float your boat, but it doesn't float the boat of even a minority of the fans that flock to Supercars. Good drivers for sure. BUT the cars are not exciting to watch, they are not noisy (The Protoype John De Veth drove in the demo sessions at the Festival sounded like a road car compared to most of the machinery on display...), they do not move around and passing is obviously difficult. They might be quick, but exciting they are not. And that matters Mark. Dale Mathers' Historic Muscle Car Trans Tasman Challenge at the Festival utterly blitzed every SuperTourer race I have seen (And I have seen most) for quantity, quality, noise, spectacle and racing. Fact I'm afraid. And those cars - as appreciating legitimate and accurate classics, arguably have more relevance in the market here in NZ that SuperTourers do. They certainly have more fans!

The bitter back biting and finger pointing amongst team owners in regard technical issues has also been as damaging as it was predictable with a bunch like that - but that in itself points squarely at poor management and poor leadership. Greg hasn't retired, he just got properly peed off with the way the series was run and the kindergarden squabbling that you all have to take some responsibility for. Its the same story for most of the team owners that have gone. They have just joined steady stream of fans and sponsors that have been dwindling since the very first round at Hampton Downs.

I quite like your ute series, and I like the V8 ute series, but they only run full time with SuperTourers because they can piggyback on the TV and buy it from them for $10k per round. Without that, I have no doubt neither series would run with them. Just about every class that has run with them on the support bill has been treated like dirt and that is why many have appeared only once or twice.

I have also read much comment over the past two years that TV3 would not cover boring racing with only a handful of cars. They say money talks, but I bet it's voice is becoming a bit annoying to the TV3 bods....eh?

Tell me, what chances would you give to a business that a) missed its target market, b) failed to create a new one c) let internal politics get utterly out of hand d) disenfranchised its own stakeholders and e) alienated potential and existing partners? Mark, you would give it 0 chance of survival and this is no different.

So am I pro NZV8s..? Nope. Not at all. Problems there are quite simple - not enough of them, no parity amongst themselves, no money to promote, a gun-ho arrogant attitude that rubs people up the wrong way (comes with the turf with these V8 types eh!!) and management that tells lie after lie until it starts believing them itself. I just feel sorry for some of the TL drivers - good blokes some of them, just racers like you and me.

For me - both series are as bad as the other and have been allowed to beat themselves and eachother to death with the help of dreadful management and zero governance from MSNZ. The whole of the sport has suffered (and is paying) and one can only hope everything SuperTourer and TLX disappears quietly off into the night very soon, along with the powers that be at MSNZ who have presided and contributed over three years to this sorry state of affairs.

Hope you can bully the new constitution through. That would be a good legacy to leave. But for me the quicker the V8 lot on both sides of the fence disappear, the better.

I didn't always feel like this either.....

Great Post

[socram]

Originally Posted by socram

Bruce Manon overtaking the whole lot (43 cars) to win by a whisker. I'd call that real racing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J42ayb1Js2A

Check out the crowded fields and the respect for other machinery. Very, very proud of the guys. Will any Super Tourer footage ever match this?

[BlueBlood]

Great footage Socram, this was my 3rd favourite class last Saturday.
I had wondered what happened to the Cobra and the MG in that lap, looks like they almost got away with it. Some great racing to be seen at HD over the 2 weekends.

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Club racer

A very interesting read this thread.
..................
I didn't always feel like this either.....

Agree 100%

[pukekoheracer]

It may be a bit short on numbers, but its a pretty good field all the same. I wouldn't mind being there tomorrow, but other things to do.

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/3367920

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by pukekoheracer

It may be a bit short on numbers, but its a pretty good field all the same. I wouldn't mind being there tomorrow, but other things to do.

http://www.mylaps.com/en/classification/3367920

2 plus seconds cover the field, how many seconds covered the TRS field?

How many NZ supertourers were anywhere near the lap record for their class ?

How many TRS drivers were anywhere near their lap record for their class ?

[Rusty Nail]

Since you asked Carl.

4 seconds covered the TRS field of 19. Last placed Munro (only 3 laps so obviously a problem) is bound to improve. The top 18 covered by a second. There were only 8 ST. The first 8 TRS were covered by half a second. TRS should be a good close race amongst the top 8 and then (compared to ST) theres the extra 11 cars to entertain you as well. Be some good dices in amongst those as well.

No idea about the lap records.

[socram]

So realistically, no matter what your vantage point, the 8 Super Tourers are all past you in a bunch, then - nothing for the next 45 seconds? That is the reality of being a spectator.

[Ugy]

Now handicap racing....different story

[pukekoheracer]

Originally Posted by socram

So realistically, no matter what your vantage point, the 8 Super Tourers are all past you in a bunch, then - nothing for the next 45 seconds? That is the reality of being a spectator.

Lucky they are not having a round at the Nurburgring then.