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14 Jan 2004, 20:25 (Ref:838393)
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#101 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
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__________________
"All this amateur analysis leads nowhere and is insignificant......So you waste hours, days, months, years of your life for what end? A bit of one-upmanship on the internet?" - Wilton969 |
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14 Jan 2004, 21:11 (Ref:838443)
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#102 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 245
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Robin Miller was on Indy Radio yesterday saying that if TG buys he will likely continue the series this season, wouldn't want to let the circuits go unused, and then kill it, because irl will be ready next year to pickup a few circuits. But I'm thinking, won't that like totally confuse racing fans even more, because you know, they are easily confused. And who would go see an irl-run cart race, because you can't even get anyone to go see an irl-run irl race.
Robin said he has joined SpeedTV.com, leaving ESPN. Said he may have his own show on speed channel. |
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"Humans are the craziest people." - Buggs Bunny |
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14 Jan 2004, 21:35 (Ref:838472)
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#103 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,376
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You'd be surprised how many people would show up, if this just became one series. Besides, could open wheel get more confusing or unimportant than it is now?
Welcome to the forum, SurfaceUnits, you picked a hell of a time!  Cheers 
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"I don't feel insecure about 'being girlie'. I do as much media as I can because I want this IRL series to be so kick-butt that NASCAR goes, 'Huh?'" Danica Patrick |
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14 Jan 2004, 21:38 (Ref:838475)
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#104 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
In any case welcome. |
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__________________
"All this amateur analysis leads nowhere and is insignificant......So you waste hours, days, months, years of your life for what end? A bit of one-upmanship on the internet?" - Wilton969 |
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15 Jan 2004, 00:47 (Ref:838681)
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#105 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,744
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When I speak of hype around OWRS I'm refering to all the great stuff PG has promised and his picture of the future. Buzz is everything. Hype is most of what nearly killed CART after 2002.
As for OWRS not having as much capital vs. TG, isn't Forsythe a billionare? Look at what he originally bought his large stake for. Last edited by Snrub; 15 Jan 2004 at 00:48. |
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No Rotor, No Motor. |
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15 Jan 2004, 01:01 (Ref:838694)
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#106 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,480
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__________________
"All this amateur analysis leads nowhere and is insignificant......So you waste hours, days, months, years of your life for what end? A bit of one-upmanship on the internet?" - Wilton969 |
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15 Jan 2004, 01:02 (Ref:838696)
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#107 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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Oh, Snrub, I don't think these guys are going to outmoney each other. The purchase price is a drop in the bucket for either. I don't think that's the point. The OWRS release today thumps the tub some more and so hard like these guys are getting a little overwhelmed about what they've gotten themselves into. They've tried first to leverage the stockholders, now they're trying to leverage creditors and promoters and race teams and the like. Sooner or later, someone's going to stand up and say, "wait a minute," like RA did. They're just trying to FORCE too many people into doing things and it's catching up with them, IMO.
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15 Jan 2004, 02:43 (Ref:838769)
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#108 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,301
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A couple of things strike me here. First, Judge Otte doesn't (can't) really care about the future of open wheel racing when he renders his decision. All he can base his decisions in is what is best for the creditors, the discharge of the legal business obligations of C^RT and then the protection of its current investors. The business wishes of OWRS and the IRL for the future aren't even in play unless they can prove that those wishes are in the best interests of the people listed above.
Next, I don't beleive that the IRL is going to make a serious bid for the series. I suspect that if they do they will face an uphill battle if only for the concept that they don't want to make anyone whole (or more whole) they appear to just want to get their competition out of the way. I said before and believe it, the IRL signed the confidentiality agreement primarily to see the contracts. C^RT had no real choice but to allow it as the IRL could probably get the court to compell C^RT to release the info and had they not done it upon immediate request it would opened the door to delay the auction. Road America absolutely made the right move in objecting to their contract being one of the assets subject to sale. Now look what happens, the IRL who has openly admitted that they want to go road racing in the future has free reign to review the contract which is truly none of their business. The can see its strengths, its weaknesses, and know what the future holds so that even if OWRS takes the bid the IRL knows where all the chips lie when it comes time to make a competing bid for use of Road America. That is but one example. In my view the confidentiallity agreement is meant to keep this kind of competing eye from seeing these things but TG has played a good hand on this one and thwarted the system. I'm surprised some of the other large racing promoters have not made claim to being interested so they could have a look too. My prediction is that OWRS will get the assets at auction on the 28th but that there will be no secrets within the industry on the ins and outs of what they bought and how to seriuosly stress them in the future. Last edited by Flatspot; 15 Jan 2004 at 02:46. |
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A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true freind will be sitting next to you saying "Damn...that was fun!" |
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15 Jan 2004, 03:05 (Ref:838783)
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#109 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 46,807
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I am not sure that will be the result flatspot, the spoiler could come from a bid from 88 Corp that is more than the pseudobid from OWRS, which when all is said and done, is likely to be cheaper than competing with that series...
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__________________
“Although people make unpleasant comments when things I write do not come true, I am simply keeping readers up to speed of what is being discussed. If things turn out differently, it does not mean that these things were never discussed. Still, as I often say, you can take what I write or ignore it - and I really do not care. I’m simply trying to let you into the world of such discussions in F1.” - Joe Saward, Green Notebook from Saint-Doulchard |
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15 Jan 2004, 04:04 (Ref:838835)
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#110 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,958
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May I ask in reality, what is the difference between TG buying up the assets, killing the series, and running a number of road races that CART ran in the past.
VS. PG's statement, of buying the series, merging it with IRL, and running a couple of road races that CART ran in the past? Seems to be about the same net result to me. |
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15 Jan 2004, 04:11 (Ref:838839)
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#111 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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Flatspot, it may be the case that IRL just wanted to see the paperwork but in this instance, CART has no standing to object. Bear, Stearns sought buyers back in July and called on IMS, Daytona and other entities in racing to see if they wanted to bid then. They did not.
Now CART is bankrupt. It is again "free play" in a different legal scenario for OWRS, IMS, Daytona, Sam's Gas Station or anyone else to sign up and potentially make a qualified bid....whether OWRS is the favored CART suitor by some or not is immaterial to the situation. |
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15 Jan 2004, 05:24 (Ref:838861)
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#112 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,301
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I beleive we are saying the same thing indycool. C^RT has no grounds to object and everything is in play for anybody that wants too.
GTR you make a good point. 88 could be the spoiler but I thought I read somewhere that they had decided not to pursue the purchase. Making a prediction and being sure are a long way apart on this deal.  Foglehund, the main difference I see is the formula and what happens in 2004. I don't think TG is prepared to run in '04 and his cars are &#%@ IMHO. Last edited by Flatspot; 15 Jan 2004 at 05:31. |
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__________________
A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true freind will be sitting next to you saying "Damn...that was fun!" |
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15 Jan 2004, 06:05 (Ref:838876)
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#113 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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One of ISC's spokesmen said in a story earlier this week that at this time they had no plans to bid. IMO, 88 Corp/ISC's biggest interest is its $2.5 million.
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15 Jan 2004, 13:51 (Ref:839240)
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#114 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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Also...
Keep in mind that IRL spokesman Fred nation said that they are carefully reviewing virtually all aspects of these assets, including potential legal ramifications with contracts with suppliers, sponsors, etc., that would remain in force as part of the OWRS buying of CART assets.... When the IRL has finished their perusal of these factors, they may find that the legal risks of lawsuits, etc., is not worth the effort to proceed with a buyout... That is exactly what Fred Nation said in the Indy Star yesterday... Let's see what happens on the 23rd and the 28th... |
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__________________
Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
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15 Jan 2004, 17:18 (Ref:839421)
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#115 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 169
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A Billion is 1 thousand million-
Neither Forsythe or TG are listed in the Forbes top 400 (which goes down to 600 million) But the Frances sure as hell are! Food for thought. Last edited by dirtfan; 15 Jan 2004 at 17:19. |
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15 Jan 2004, 19:22 (Ref:839514)
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#116 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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These people are much more likely to outflank each other in the courtroom than to outmoney each other.
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15 Jan 2004, 20:25 (Ref:839567)
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#117 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,215
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TG isn't listed because the money and assets are within a variety of separate holdings that comprise the late Tony Hulman's estate....
Personally, I don't see the IRL making a bid on this....but it makes good business sense to go in and see what is there concerning assets, etc....a serious bid, especially if it is successful, could open a Pandora's Box for the IRL in various legal actions concerning contracts with suppliers, sponsors, etc, that was part of the buyout OWRS has proposed and put before the court that they might have to alter or break due to conflicts with deals they already have for their own series.... There are so amny issues invovled in this...far more than we may realized.... But I do know this... a bunch of lawyers are ringing the cash register in Indianapolis this week and next....big time.... |
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__________________
Finally... One American Open Wheel Series! |
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15 Jan 2004, 20:56 (Ref:839594)
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#118 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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No kiddin' on the lawyers, Tim.
There are so many issues that could shake out so many different ways that it's impossible to tell. 1. RA's motion to declare its contract not-transferrable because OWRS is incapable of performing, i..e, doen;t have enough race cars. That could change the whole ball of wax dramatically. 2. If the court decides that CART is Chapter 7 instead of Chapter 11, that could change the landscape dramatically. 3. Whether IRL does or does not submit a bid could change things dramatically. All those elements are going to change the positions of many of the players as this goes along. Time will tell. |
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16 Jan 2004, 04:20 (Ref:839955)
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#119 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 4,744
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My point was not to suggest that there would be a bidding war, but simply that everyone is suggesting OWRS has only a few million to throw around vs. 'the money' of TG who is suppose to be so powerfull. How much money does TG have to spend on the IRL in reality? The France Family/ISC might try to thwart CART by not letting them use their tracks, but do they really have any use in killing CART? I don't see them pushing extremely hard to kill CART. Let's TG or ISC put in an offer on some CART assets, surely OWRS can outbid them by raising it from firesale to reasonable price.
You've got a point Indycool about OWRS forcing people to do stuff. It has seemed like they are doing their darnest to make everything go exactly the way they would have it. It's too idealistic, just like the hype and tub thumping, especially for guys who claim to be so much the epidomy of 'businessmen'. Last edited by Snrub; 16 Jan 2004 at 04:21. |
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__________________
No Rotor, No Motor. |
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16 Jan 2004, 07:39 (Ref:840031)
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#120 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,125
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Could somebody take a moment and, in layman's terms, describe the differences between Chapters 7 and 11 for me? Thanx.
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__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus! |
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16 Jan 2004, 08:12 (Ref:840046)
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#121 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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Macdaddy, I'm no lawyer but my understanding is this. CART has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which means that the company expects to get its affairs in order, work out a plan with creditors to emerge and start forward again. Chapter 7 is involuntary bankruptcy, meaning the judge declares the company insolvent and hopeless and orders a liquidation of assets to pay creditors.
In this instance, because CART has agreed to sell its assets to OWRS and this particular CART company (of two) would therefore have no revenue stream to emerge and live from, the judge COULD order Chapter 7, nullifying the OWRS bid and throwing CART's assets open to auction, piece by piece, to OWRS, IRL or Sam's Gas Station. The judge will make that determination based on what's best for creditors and secondarily, shareholders. What's best for OWRS or a racing series is at best third priority. |
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16 Jan 2004, 08:16 (Ref:840050)
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#122 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,125
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Again, thanx.
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__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus! |
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16 Jan 2004, 10:53 (Ref:840189)
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#123 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,294
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Putting your money onto the stock-market is like gambling. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. In this instance, people lost. TS, they just have to deal with it.
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__________________
Sunderland Til I Die! |
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16 Jan 2004, 11:19 (Ref:840220)
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#124 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,983
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F1, bankruptcy takes care of creditors first, then shareholders,
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19 Jan 2004, 22:59 (Ref:843277)
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#125 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,125
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A good read, (good enough to link you to!), from Robin Miller...
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/9400/ He takes a look at some of the scenerios we're facing. |
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Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus! |
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