Attendance and TV Ratings so Far

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I have a pretty high opinion of the people on this forum, I think everyone is smart enough to grasp the level of success in Edmonton. 80k on race day is a big race, period. 200k indeed does sound more impressive, but it's not useless, it helps to grasp the ferocity of the fans. 55k sat out in the rain (or as a tactic one of our members employed, periodically waiting in an out-house. Apparently there weren't enough of those, so imagine the state of it and the fact that it was somehow better than outside!) for Friday practice.

I do not get the TV numbers. 1M watch on CBS, but then a week later 150k watch on Speed? I understand that Speed should be lower, but THAT much lower? What is the problem? If anyone has any explaination or inclination of an explaintion, I'd love to hear it.

Edmonton doesn't save Champ Car any more than Danica saves the IRL. Both are positive developments, but don't radically change the big picture.

Network is obviously more accessible than Speed...which isn't even available in some of the Top 20 markets in America....

IMO, a 1.0 on network would not mean as much as a 1.0 on cable...even though both reach an equal number of households, because some idle channel surfers could run across a network event...with or without cable...

But a 1.0 on cable meant that someone had to seek out that station as a sports fan, a gearhead, or whatever to find that race...thus they might be more inclined to become a fan than the casual channel surfer...

and not everyone has cable...I know two gearheads who don't have it because they can't afford it when they are paying catholic school tuition for 3-4 kids, etc...

and an audience "share" would be more significant, because there aren't as many sets hooked to cable to be "turned on" for someone to watch a show or a race....

[Snrub]

But how does one explain the IRL's EPSN vs. IRL network vs. CC network ratings? The IRL's ESPN ratings are lower, but not that much lower than network. One could argue that means that only real fans are watching IRL races, but the IRL network races get around the same ratings as network Champ Car. One would expect the same number of casual viewers for both. One would then expect both series to produce similar cable ratings, granted that ESPN is better than Speed, but to me anything less than 50% of ESPN ratings is not as easily explainable.

[Tim Northcutt]

ESPN has a broader distribution of households than Speed does via cable outlets....

also keep in mind that there are still some cable outlets that carry only ESPN, but not ESPN2...

Since Indy, the IRL's ESPN ratings have been pretty good...they had a 1.0 for Texas and a 1.1 for the Kansas race....those are substantially higher than the 0.6 and 0.7s they had goten in the past...

I didn't see a rating for the ESPN2 telecast form Richmond, and I haven't seen nashville numbers, either...

A 1.0 on CBS for Champ Car is a good improvement compared to the recent past....but there are millions more TV sets that can get network broadcasts...

[mountainstar]

I don't get speed and couldn't get it even if I wanted it. It's clear for the future we need to be on broadcast tv. The four races on CBS had steadily improving numbers which is a good sign.

[Omega99]

Originally Posted by Electrocuted

I hate it. I really hate how some posters at different sites "pump up" the outstanding weekend with fluffy numbers and high fives. It gets everyone thinking all is well and the series is saved and gets CC fans on a high loop of that ol roller coaster ride.......... and then reality comes out... which is 80,000 different people attended Edmunton, and 150,000 people watched it in the USA. Which causes another low dive on the roller coaster. The fans dont need it. The fans have plenty of high's and low's to endure without avoidable artificial pumping of chests from the "death to earl crowd."

80,000 different people attended.
150,000 (rough) watched in the US.
300,000 (if memory on Canadian races is correct) watched in Canada.

It was a good race weekend, a great race weekend. The numbers are respectable by themselves,, if it wasnt for the few posters that attempted to inflate them into more then they were and now that the numbers are seen for what they are,,, they are not as good as led to believe.

There's plenty of high's and low's ahead. And it will take another few more years before any improvement in the series will be noticed.

I think you misunderstand. Most people are saying little more than they enjoyed the event and that there were tons of people. No false hype there.

[mountainstar]

I find it quite strange that all Electro posts here at ten-tenths is champcar doom and gloom and nothing else. Nothing on the IRL, ALMS, naked women, etc. The IRL posted a .4 or .5 on ESPN(a network with a far wider reach) and a crowd of 25000 at Nashville, so it's not like they can brag.

When I look back at where we were a year and a half ago, with the future in the hands of a judge and another suitor waiting in the wings to pick the bones of CART, we survived and were purchased by someone with common sense and a clue how to run a business. Mr. Kalkhoven is doing all the right things to get back to where we should be. Edmonton was a stunning success, San Jose is now sold out and Denver almost is.

In my opinion, I believe the best way to expand your fan base is to get butts in the seat at races so they can see it, smell it and hear it. I'd say you are less likely to grab a fan just because they saw it on TV. I think the best focus for now is to create the best events possible to draw the crowds. They always told us in business school that one happy customer will always share their experience with others. Based on the number of first hand reports from edmonton, it sounds like we have some new fans and you can bet they'll be telling others about it.

The four races on CBS had steadly increasing ratings and in the future it's obvious we need to be on network tv. I'm quite sure Mr. Kalkoven is very aware of that.

"It will take another few more years before any improvement in the series will be noticed"

Not bloody likely, there's already been a huge improvement. All of the "death to IRL crowd"(which I'm a part of) are more fired up about our series that ever. I'll be going to more races this year and spending more money than I ever have on champcar. I'd say for most of us "d to I crowd", we really don't care anymore since reunification is now dead. We're too busy doing our thing and they're doing theirs and as long as they don't muddle in our affairs all will be quiet. Otherwise you can expect the dogs of war to be unleashed.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't get speed and couldn't get it even if I wanted it. It's clear for the future we need to be on broadcast tv. The four races on CBS had steadily improving numbers which is a good sign.

It certainly is a good sign, and I hope it continues...

[Amar7605]

Well if Electrocuted wants to post only the negative, then Electrocuted can. Besides, for every negative there are defininitely positives. Edmonton is a positive, and hearing that San Jose is sold out is definitely a positive!

[JohnSSC]

I suppose you won't be surprised to find me supportive of elctro. He is not negative - he is simply calling it as he sees it. Everyone here has an opinion which is what makes for a good discussion. Labeling people as this or that stifles the discussion.

It is an open forum insofar as a discussion of the series goes - if you do not like the discussion, simply move on to another thread!

[macdaddy]

Good post in support of Electrocuted. I agree.
Some, however, are "negative". They label themselves.

[Liz]

Originally Posted by macdaddy

Some people try to make the most of the lows.
Other people just try to make the highs low.

I will go along with that, Macdaddy. These are the people who come to the hospital to visit you and tell you about their uncle who was left a hopeless cripple by the operation you just had, and offer you the name of a good lawyer in case you want to sue.

There may be times and places to continually pour ice water on celebrations, but I'm blessed if I can think of any.

Why are some folks so determined to protect us happy people from ourselves by continually telling us we really ought to be crying? Am I missing something here?

[Kicking-back]

I have been critical of ChampCar when required, but I would be happy to say Edmonton was one of the best events and best races the series has had for some time.

[Liz]

KB, that is the way to do it -- When Required, critique of the series is the way it will grow -- but to come into a party and start telling people that, for their own good they should stop celebrating ....

What's the point of that?

[Kicking-back]

I don't disagree with you on that, Liz.

[Electrocuted]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

In my opinion, I believe the best way to expand your fan base is to get butts in the seat at races so they can see it, smell it and hear it. I'd say you are less likely to grab a fan just because they saw it on TV. I think the best focus for now is to create the best events possible to draw the crowds.

A balance must be struck somewhere. BOTH attendance and tv are needed. Relying only on attendance will bring in a few sponsors for one-off's, but wont bring in sufficient sponsors for the season. Do sponsors want 80,000 different people to see their product over a weekend, or over a million seeing their product on tv, or both??? And, from history,,,, when "millions attended," the tv ratings didnt show those that attended FOLLOWED once the "circus" packed up and left town.

To address my D&G and negative info....... I was very very very clear in my first couple of posts,,, I like the racing and a half dozen of the better drivers.
I am critical of the management of the series. I dont allow people "lying" to me. I dont like the "negative fighting" words against ANY others. And I dont like what KK did to MPH and JDS stockholders. My opinions. My values. My morals.
In the same breath, I respect others rights to enjoy their series they prefer. Thats why I stay in BIZ threads. Why I only post information in a non-biased manner and then move along leaving it for others to consider or to toss out. It's their option. I respect it.

[mountainstar]

Electrocuted:

1. Any logical person knows we are not going to wake up one morning and have 5.0 TV ratings and 200,000 every race day at the track. It's a gradual process and I believe they are doing all the right things to improve the business. What is wrong with one-off sponsors? I think it's brilliant and thinking outside of the box. If you want more details, then we can discuss that some other time.

2. Lying.. that's a stretch...Lying about what. The current management has been pretty upfront with everything they are doing and have listened to the fans. It's the only racing series I know of that actively canvasses it's fans for their opinions.

3. Mr. Kalkoven didn't do anything to MPH shareholders that they didn't do to themselves. You need to check with Penske and Ganassi as those two and others dumped their stock en-masse causing a panic and a crash in the price. By the time the 3 amigos turned up on the scene the price of the stock was hovering around $1 from a high of $28. In addition, Pookie spent millions on dumb things like lighting at Cleveland and a race at Brands. The company was in the toilet. So somehow the 3 amigos are responsible now for all wrongs committed up to 2003? The people that need to be strung up are the carpetbagging, opportunistic Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, etc. who only ever considered short term gain while cashing their Toyota and Honda checks and you can bet when the clock runs out on that money in the IRL, they'll bail on them too.

4. JDS is outside of the scope of this forum, but under his management he increased company sales 20 fold and greatly increased shareholder value.

5. "Why I only post information in a non-biased manner and then move along leaving it for others to consider or to toss out. It's their option. I respect it"

By definition we are all biased as we all have an opinion. You obviously were biased in your post after edmonton. Let's revisit what you said:

"I hate it. I really hate how some posters at different sites "pump up" the outstanding weekend with fluffy numbers and high fives. It gets everyone thinking all is well and the series is saved and gets CC fans on a high loop of that ol roller coaster ride.......... and then reality comes out... which is 80,000 different people attended Edmunton, and 150,000 people watched it in the USA. Which causes another low dive on the roller coaster. The fans dont need it. The fans have plenty of high's and low's to endure without avoidable artificial pumping of chests from the "death to earl crowd."

[JohnSSC]

But that is just how it goes here: no offense, but anything posted that is not "supportive" of OWRS is a "negative" post. Any discussion among fans of anything will have comments that do not toe the party line promoted by the sport in question.

For example, I have followed hockey locally since the late 60's - it is a sport I truly love. I hated the loss of the season. That was something though that had some positives (especially the Pen's getting the 1st pick overall, but I digress). But in talking to other fans here we all at times had things of which we were critical about: things the players did, things the owners did and things the agents did. That does not mean we were "negative" because we did not completely buy into the owners statements or that we somehow did not like hockey anymore. It meant we were simply trying to be sensible and realistic. We were trying to see all sides and like fans anywhere we were agitating for what we hope will be a good outcome.

Same here. We get notices from posters, promoters and the series regarding attendance. It is logical then to make comparisons: to last season, to five seasons ago or to ten seasons ago if the venue is the same. Further, it is also reasonable to ask: "How many attended? How are they counted?" Because often the only thing we have to go on is the old "the stands were full" statement. So one can ask: "What does that mean? How many can be seated at venue A? Is that more or less than last season?" No harm in trying to establish a baseline so we can measure progress and for a change have a firm number or a firm idea of how the number is arrived at.

The bottom line here is that if you find a thread that is really annoying to you then you are not required to participate in it. It seems though at times that there is more joy in Mudville to be had by attacking the poster, attaching labels and trying to make it seem like some sort of treasonous event to do something other than accept what some PR person churns out without giving it any further thought.

If you do choose to participate in the thread, then a response such as: "I disagree, here is why" rather than some sort of diatribe on all of those negative gloom and doom people allowed to come in to this forum and actually post. It is a shame really because one thing that electro, in this case seemed to be concerned about was that the reaction to his postings would be negative not toward his thought process or his opinion, but to himself as a person. It is a shame that our reaction to someone would just serve to make them feel more comfortable to lurk here rather than post - or not visit at all.

[macdaddy]

If you do choose to participate in the forum, then a response such as: "I follow, here is why..."

BACK TO TOPIC...

[Amar7605]

You're right, Macdaddy.

Okay, well one thing that mountainstar touched on is something that I agree with. Having monster TV ratings and major attendance figures will take some time. I do believe that Champ Car is heading in the right direction, and with globalization happening in the business world I do feel that they are setting themselves up for more sponsorship in the long-term.

NASCAR is trying to expand in North America, but Champ Car is already racing outside of the continent. The IRL - forget it, it looks like their days are numbered. Formula 1 is getting too expensive.

Champ Car, in my opinion, really has potential to grow like crazy. Just give it some time, everyone :-)

[Tim Northcutt]

I also believe that they are moving in teh right direction...

I don't agree with how OWRS tracks their attendance figures for a weekend, because they shouldn't count people more than once, but regardless...80,000 at the Edmonton race with the grandstands sold out and general admission areas well-stocked is an excellent crowd for ANY racing series...

My only concern is the cost vs. revenue financially for street races, since there are major costs involved to set up the temporary stands, fencing and barriers, etc.

Net revenue from 80,000 at an exisiting facility would be much better, because the overhead costs of the event are much less...

But this is about attendance....and those types of attendance numbers are very strong....

I hope that it continues....

and if San Jose and Denver are sold well, that is good news as well...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I also believe that they are moving in teh right direction...

I don't agree with how OWRS tracks their attendance figures for a weekend, because they shouldn't count people more than once, but regardless...80,000 at the Edmonton race with the grandstands sold out and general admission areas well-stocked is an excellent crowd for ANY racing series...

My only concern is the cost vs. revenue financially for street races, since there are major costs involved to set up the temporary stands, fencing and barriers, etc.

Net revenue from 80,000 at an exisiting facility would be much better, because the overhead costs of the event are much less...

But this is about attendance....and those types of attendance numbers are very strong....

I hope that it continues....

and if San Jose and Denver are sold well, that is good news as well...

I think the reason why they do the 3 day thing is to show people turn up for all 3 days rather than a situation of having practice, qualifying and support series run in front of empty stands.

As the edmonton promoters pointed out there were a lot of costs that will not have to be made next year.

Champcar for instance owns all of the barriers, grandstands and other assorted stuff from the old CART grand prix in Houston. It's all sitting in a warehouse in Houston and will just need to be put up. The Clipsal 500 V8 Supercar race in Adelaide uses all of the old barriers and pits from the F1 grand prix that ended there in 1995. Denver is using grandstand seats from the PGA tour that rolled though Denver. Just some examples of how costs can be amortized or reduced after an initial investment.

[Tim Northcutt]

But there are still ablor costs to set them up...

However, I do agrtee that the apporach you have just mentioned makes perfect sense...

The orchestra I work for has done the same thing with sets, costumes, props, and musical charts for a huge holiday production that we host each December...

Not only do we used them year after year, but the show is so successful here that we license it out and present it with other orchestras in other parts of the company...

So costumes and old sets we have relplaced are used in those other cities...the production is a huge money machine for us...

[Snrub]

For publically traded companies, in theory they are suppose to present things in the most accurate manner possible, always erring on the side of less than of more. Champ Car is no longer publically traded, but I think it would be a good idea to present BOTH the weekend figures and the race day figures. This is a breakdown of what really happened at an event and thus is more accurate than just one figure or the other. Champ Car tends to only state the race day figures when they're good but only the weekend figures if they're okay to bad, but better than horrible.

Recall that one measure of value for a sponsor is how many time and how long they're seen by a fan. Some might find more value in a small amount of exposure but to a lot of different people. Thus both race and weekend figures are important measures of success. I think for Edmonton having 80k on raceday was excellent, but it is a unique success to have such great crowds the two days before, despite poor weather (rain is a risk to sponsors, but Edmonton would be less risky because the fans will come anyway).

[Liz]

Forum = CCWS

[indycool]

In almost all cases, the PROMOTER announces attendance estimates or figures, NOT the sanctioning body (unless they are one and the same) IF they announce them at all. Some go by media estimates, which are generally high Much of the problem with three-day attendance numbers is that they're not offered or estimated each day, then a three-day number is issued with maybe a Race Day number, too, and everyone has forgotten what the crowd even looked like on Friday.

As far as TV ratings go, CCWS ratings will naturally be "up" on its network telecasts than it's 2004 diet of SPIKE on cable, which pretty much took the series off the general viewers' radar.

In 2003, with races on SPEED, Jim Liberatore was quoted as saying that CART was the least-rated series shown on the network. Announced attendance at Long Beach was 90,000 and the rating translated to 67,000 viewers, an unusual situation.

With most of the remaining CCWS ratings on SPEED, those ratings are unlikely to be high. As the IRL is unlikely to EVER get good ratings for Motegi, CCWS is unlikely to get good ratings at places like Ansan and Beijing in the U.S. Coupled with SPEED's lower "reach," the late-season races (like the IRL at Fontana last year was against the NFL AND the World Series) have a lot of competition for the guy clicking the remote.