Merger talks again? - Page 5

Dutton · 19 Apr 2006, 20:37 (Ref:1589089)

Hmmm.

Not sure that would work out too well.

indycool · 19 Apr 2006, 23:55 (Ref:1589232)

Luke, where on earth did you hear that? NASCAR is stock cars and has plenty on its plate with that.

mountainstar · 20 Apr 2006, 01:33 (Ref:1589271)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Luke, where on earth did you hear that? NASCAR is stock cars and has plenty on its plate with that.

Hmmm.. Nascar is a bunch of megolomanics so I wouldn't be surprised.

indycool · 20 Apr 2006, 02:03 (Ref:1589278)

I would.

The Snout · 20 Apr 2006, 05:49 (Ref:1589366)

I don't believe this merger is going to get over the line. CC need to continue to push ahead with 2007 and beyond plans. The energy being used on merging talks needs to be turned back to it's own affairs at some point.

Up to GF and KK to decide when that point is.

indycool · 20 Apr 2006, 14:18 (Ref:1589733)

Snout, I'm pretty close to agreeing with you.One, we're into the season now and KK and GF have races to run and TG has the "500" coming up. Two, we don't know what the issues are that are being discussed, although we can speculate.

Just IMO, but I'd guess KK and GF would want to dump CC, which loses money, and keep a sanctioning agreement for Long Beach, Mexico City and Toronto -- their races -- for starters, races they can act as promoters and possibly make money. Would also think Cosworth is in the mix and if a merger takes place, would probably have Ford badging. The chassis could be a hangup, but at this early stage of development of the DP-01 and Atherton's statement that Panoz wouldn't stand in the way of a merger, Panoz already builds IRL cars, there are plenty legal ones around and his efforts on the DP-01 so far could be paid off with a few bucks and a deal to continue manufacturing the IRL chassis.

Past that, I see a lot of off-radar positioning going on here to resolve egos -- TG is listening on behalf of his family's stewardship of the "500" and will do what's best for that and the car owners that compete in the IRL, Honda, Dallara, etc. What's best for Indy is going to be what's best for the sportand TG bid $13 million for those exact three races at the bankruptcy auction, so he's not afraid to spend the bucks, but I don't think he's going to want to make GF and KK "whole" on their investment. Money will be the stickler...whether it gets resolved or not, time will tell.

Fogelhund · 20 Apr 2006, 14:23 (Ref:1589734)

Of course CC and Indy have to keep pushing in their own direction, in case the merger fails. That only makes sense. But, I think pushing forward is a necessity, whether this is a merger for 2007 or 2008.

Regarding this NASCAR thought to having an Open Wheel series, well.... I just can't see much acceptance without marquee events.

Assuming a merger, with all the teams and events available from the current menu of both series... well, it wouldn't leave NASCAR the OW series much. Of course, we could talk about NASCAR using it's size, to coerce those NASCAR/Open Wheel teams combo's into their Open Wheel Series... but I have a hard time believing that would work in this case.

Despite huge fields, and ok racing, the NASCAR Grand Am series, still doesn't find any acceptance from the mainstream Sportscar fans, and I would suggest an Open Wheel series would fall under the same category.

Fogelhund · 20 Apr 2006, 14:31 (Ref:1589741)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

S
Just IMO, but I'd guess KK and GF would want to dump CC, which loses money, and keep a sanctioning agreement for Long Beach, Mexico City and Toronto -- their races -- for starters, races they can act as promoters and possibly make money.

That is an interesting assumption indycool, but I don't think I can agree with it. We could just as easily say the same thing about George, tired of losing money, looking to dump, except as promoter of I500. I think it has just come down to a point where everybody realizes that they need each other, and both ownership (groups) are being pressured by manufacturers/teams/sponsors, to merge or else.

Quote:

Would also think Cosworth is in the mix and if a merger takes place, would probably have Ford badging. The chassis could be a hangup, but at this early stage of development of the DP-01 and Atherton's statement that Panoz wouldn't stand in the way of a merger, Panoz already builds IRL cars, there are plenty legal ones around and his efforts on the DP-01 so far could be paid off with a few bucks and a deal to continue manufacturing the IRL chassis.

.. well chances are they'd actually use the DP-01 chassis, not the IRL chassis.

Quote:

Past that, I see a lot of off-radar positioning going on here to resolve egos -- TG is listening on behalf of his family's stewardship of the "500" and will do what's best for that and the car owners that compete in the IRL, Honda, Dallara, etc. What's best for Indy is going to be what's best for the sportand TG bid $13 million for those exact three races at the bankruptcy auction, so he's not afraid to spend the bucks, but I don't think he's going to want to make GF and KK "whole" on their investment. Money will be the stickler...whether it gets resolved or not, time will tell.

What you have described is a takeover, not a merger. I don't think a takeover will occur by either sides. It is my opinion, that the only way this works is if both parties look like winners. There will be no $ changing hands, just an agreement, and ironing out details. Just my opinion.

indycool · 20 Apr 2006, 14:48 (Ref:1589749)

Well, guess we disagree and time will tell, Fogel. Just our opinions, I guess. It'd be much easier and cheaper for all concerned to pay off Panoz for the work he's done on the DP-01 and he already builds IRL chassis for the same price. What parties "look like" after this isn't going to matter near as much as the finances. KK and GF own properties that could be financially solvent and CC isn't one of 'em. JMO, but they could bankrupt out CC at the end of the season in a heartbeat and keep the assets that are really "assets." There's no sign at all that TG is going to bankrupt out the IRL as the steward of the sport through the "500."

mountainstar · 20 Apr 2006, 17:28 (Ref:1589942)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Just IMO, but I'd guess KK and GF would want to dump CC, which loses money,

Link please.

luke · 20 Apr 2006, 18:01 (Ref:1589980)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Snout, I'm pretty close to agreeing with you.One, we're into the season now and KK and GF have races to run and TG has the "500" coming up. Two, we don't know what the issues are that are being discussed, although we can speculate.

Well as it's the 500 coming up that means there is plenty of time in the month of May to discuss a merge.

Quote:

Just IMO, but I'd guess KK and GF would want to dump CC, which loses money, and keep a sanctioning agreement for Long Beach, Mexico City and Toronto -- their races -- for starters, races they can act as promoters and possibly make money. Would also think Cosworth is in the mix and if a merger takes place, would probably have Ford badging. The chassis could be a hangup, but at this early stage of development of the DP-01 and Atherton's statement that Panoz wouldn't stand in the way of a merger, Panoz already builds IRL cars, there are plenty legal ones around and his efforts on the DP-01 so far could be paid off with a few bucks and a deal to continue manufacturing the IRL chassis.

You think KK and GP would want to dump Champ Car and it loses money? And just keep 4 of its 15 races? And just act as race promoters so it could 'possibly make money'?
I'm sorry indycool but are you serious? How many millions of thousands of dollars has Tong George paid on the IRL?
From 1996 to 2003 (this is based on facts from the Autocourse yearbook just so I have a source if your in denial indycool) Tony George spent $300 million on the IRL, paying the prize money for all it's races, underwriting teams, large and small and paying some driver's salaries too.
From what I can see the IRL is hardly a money maker. Where as Champ Car is doing very well from the 3 amigos business wise since the take over.

As for 4 races, and the rest IRL, do you really think Kevin Kaulkoven would want this? Surely half and half is fair.
And as oval races go, (Again more stats from Autocourse 2003) 67 IRL drivers have been hospitalized with serious injuries over 8 years while CART drivers have been seriously injured 32 times in 25 years.
However this is what I said in the IRL merge thread: Oval racing can be exciting, just look at the Champ Car / CART races years a go at Michigan and even Fontana at the finishes. Then quite a few of the IRL races can be quite exciting.
However.
I find half the other oval races boring, I'm not really a fan of the half mile Richmond oval, nor the bumpy Kentucky oval and nor the Nashville Concrete bowl. I also don't like a few others that are just flat out, not challenging races.
The best ovals are Indy, Michigan, Nazareth, Pocono, and Milwaukee. (I know Nazareth is gone now)
As for the series if it was to happen I'd like it to be either 2/3rds road / street, and 1/3rd oval. I think that's pretty reasonable......

As for the Panoz Champ Car chassis, how is it early stages? It will be ready for San Jose in a couple of months. Why dump a program that looks to be successful and make a new one for the pride stake of the IRL? It's just common sense in my opinion. Not because it was originaly designed for Champ Car, and by the time it's launched it could quite possibly be for a new merged series so I can't see why there would be anything wrong for it or make the IRL look as if it's using a Champ Car chassis when in theory it isn't if you can see what I'm saying...
And besides, the Panoz DP-01 is designed to run on ovals as well.....Amd why can all this development especially when for a unifictaion to happen in '07, things would have to be sorted out before August.

Tim Northcutt · 20 Apr 2006, 18:21 (Ref:1589996)

If a combined schedule would come about, I believe that the best-attended and supported events would be the ones to make the cut....because it is all about revenue.

A place like Texas causes a problem...it draws 90,000-100,000 people on race night, but Champ car had to cancel a race there because of the G-Forces on the drivers due to the high banks.

As a guy who has attended the Kentucky races the past two years, I can tell you that both races were VERY exciting with lots of passing and action, and both were near capacity crowds (capacity is 65,000)

Nashville may be a concrete bowl, but the place is packed every July for the IRL...friends of mine who make that 5 hour drive each summer have told me that (Capacity is about 60,000).

Both Nashville and Kentucky do not have the Nextel Cup on their schedules (but both do the Trucks and Busch Series), thus open wheel is the big crown jewel of their seasons and both are promoted very well by those venues.

Also, don't leave Kansas or Chicagoland off the list....TG owns a piece of Chicagoland, and Kansas is rated by both fans and race teams as one of the very best facilities in the country for amenities...both of those races draw about 80,000 fans when the IRL runs there.

I agree that there should be a good mix of venues and types of courses...

But dumping markets where there is strong fan support in favor of street parades does not make economic sense to me....especially if a race like San Jose would stay on the schedule to replace Texas, Kansas, Chicagoland, or other venues that are better suited to the fans and provide fast, exciting racing.

luke · 20 Apr 2006, 18:29 (Ref:1590002)

Thanks for the insight Tim. I can see where you’re coming from with your perspective and if it was to happen I guess those would be the races that would stay. As I said, I'm not really a fan of those events but for example, Kansas, Chicagoland and Kentucky do create good racing and do seem to be good events.

And as San Jose was mentioned, according to the San Jose Mercury news, 19 palm trees are being started to be moved in preparation for the 2nd annual event, which will in effect create double the width which is no doubt a positive. (40 feet compared to 20 feet)

indycool · 20 Apr 2006, 18:53 (Ref:1590029)

mountainstar, don't have a link but what are they doing differently than Pook did when he blew $90 million in '03 which WAS documented?

luke, I didn't SAY just three or four CC races would be adopted. I said I thought KK and GF would want to protect their own assets that make money FIRST.

Past practice indicates TG will deal with the "500" in May and won't be talking merger.

The Panoz DP-01 design so POed Lola designer and raing engineer Bruce Ashmore that he joined Foyt's IRL team. IMO, it is NOT a suitable oval car without major modifications. We've already had that discussion.

luke · 20 Apr 2006, 18:56 (Ref:1590036)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

The Panoz DP-01 design so POed Lola designer and raing engineer Bruce Ashmore that he joined Foyt's IRL team. IMO, it is NOT a suitable oval car without major modifications. We've already had that discussion.

Link please that the Panoz DP-01 that is set to be shown to the public at the San Jose race is not a suitable oval car without major modifications?

indycool · 20 Apr 2006, 19:01 (Ref:1590044)

Tell you what is floating around Indy. The DP-01 is primarily a road course car within a spec price range and CC is pulling out of ovals with only Milwaukee on the schedule this year and that contract up after this year. Why would CC build a car that leans to ovals? I'll talk to some engineers -- again -- but one told me already that the high nose on the thing would spear a cockpit in a high-speed oval crash against a sideways car or possibly cause it to flip on frontal contact. There's a start.

luke · 20 Apr 2006, 19:13 (Ref:1590061)

The fact that there is only one oval this year is some what irrelevant as KK has said that oval racing will still remain in Champ Car and in the future expect to see more oval races.

Secondly, the IRL car is not all that safe on the ovals if you seem to think that the DP-01 won't be. The IRL cars have too much downforce some of that is down to the way the nose is postioned so when they crash they tend to take off (this is facts not opinions btw). Now that isn't dangerous is it not? Here is more info on other logistics on the current IRL chassis and the new Panoz DP-01:

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/23050/

Quote:

New chassis specs. I'm still not convinced the seat position of the IRL car is safe, and I'm not the only one. Drivers who have made the switch from Champ Car to the IRL complain of a bad angle and limited visibility. Of course, if the previous suggestion regarding turbos is followed, then Panoz already will have the edge on a fresh design. But, since it's doubtful that turbos will win out, the new generation of chassis built to accommodate the naturally aspirated engine should be redesigned with a seat position that's not quite as prone as the IRL's current models.

Fogelhund · 20 Apr 2006, 20:14 (Ref:1590123)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Tell you what is floating around Indy. The DP-01 is primarily a road course car within a spec price range and CC is pulling out of ovals with only Milwaukee on the schedule this year and that contract up after this year. Why would CC build a car that leans to ovals? I'll talk to some engineers -- again -- but one told me already that the high nose on the thing would spear a cockpit in a high-speed oval crash against a sideways car or possibly cause it to flip on frontal contact. There's a start.

Your concerns are not shared by those who are much more informed in these areas, than you or I. I can't say much more than that.

Snips1 · 20 Apr 2006, 20:23 (Ref:1590135)

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatscott

this my thought : no merger happens - IRL will fold in 3 years (lack of fans and sponsership to run a season sucessfully - bill france will buy indianapolis motor speedway - X-CART teams will crawl back to Champcar .

If they don't merge, BOTH series will dissepear, both of them lack sponsorship and no one sees to have the edge.....

Dutton · 20 Apr 2006, 21:01 (Ref:1590182)

Regarding the NASCAR OW rumour, perhaps they are in the midst of contigency planning for the event of no merger and both series folding?

Then they could have a good opportunity.

luke · 20 Apr 2006, 21:05 (Ref:1590187)

Well it's very hard to imagine, especially NASCAR as it views a much different policy on racing. But It wouldn't be impossible as I could see them doing it but it would be the last thing we want and turn the heat between a selection of open wheel fans towards stock car fans even more in my opinion.

Dutton · 20 Apr 2006, 21:08 (Ref:1590193)

It certainly wouldn't be ideal.

The Snout · 20 Apr 2006, 22:27 (Ref:1590296)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Snout, I'm pretty close to agreeing with you.One, we're into the season now and KK and GF have races to run and TG has the "500" coming up. Two, we don't know what the issues are that are being discussed, although we can speculate..

Think we're agreeing but for different reasons. I believe the ownership structure is a sticking point and I don't see it being resolved either in time for a 2007 unified series or indeed ever.

And as 2007 is a big year for Champ Car I suggest that efforts be turned asap to it's preparation if a merger isn't going to fly.

Seoigh · 20 Apr 2006, 23:12 (Ref:1590325)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

No offense, but Bill France does not have the coin to buy IMS. And yes, I agree that the France family has access to some serious coin!

No offense, but why do you feel that International SPEEDWAY Corp. (Bill France) lacks the cash to purchase Indy? Have you seen their latest (published) financials? 'Seems they could buy Disney if they so-decided.

paul-collins · 21 Apr 2006, 00:11 (Ref:1590340)

Some things aren't about the money. The Hulman family will not be selling any time soon. Maybe the next generation will.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Merger A Done Deal!	TedN	ChampCar World Series	5	9 May 2006 07:42
Gerry talks F1 Merger	The Snout	ChampCar World Series	20	24 Feb 2003 06:11