Genuine vs non original

[JRTM]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

And if everyone is on Ms is that not also a level playing field?

While on the subject of Silvetsone, I think I am correct in saying that the WSM race was won by a "new" Lola T70 - the continuation car of Martin Birrane. Definitely a line in the sand i think.

[John Turner]

John, you are correct; it was.

[rogerwills]

Did everyone see that Masters have issued a new "bulletin" on continuation cars? Very positive.

[Peter Mallett]

Can't find it, got a link Roger?

[rogerwills]

Here is the text:

From: The Masters Series <info@themastersseries.com>
To: Roger Wills
Sent: Mon Aug 06 09:52:49 2007
Subject: Continuation Cars in WSM

Firstly, we hope that those many of you who raced at the Silverstone Classic event enjoyed the event and the WSM/SRM race. Even though the weather did turn against us at the worst possible moment, we have received much positive feedback from drivers, press and spectators about what a great race it was.

During the WSM / SRM Drivers Briefing at Silverstone a question arose relating to our grid selection process that was not appropriate to answer at a formal briefing. We said that we would get back to you all with a clear answer to the question concerning ‘Continuation’ cars and their eligibility – so, here it is.

Firstly, in a world of FIA HTPs, where continuation cars are treated the same as an original car in the eyes of FIA, the only way for us to distinguish cars is via our own regulations which state:

'In the event of over-subscription, invitation and entry preference will be given at the organisers’ discretion, to those cars felt to have greater historical interest or importance. In order to participate in races, a car may only be powered by a period specification engine of a type originally fitted to the car during its participation in period International competition'

As you may also know, the FIA Historic Commission continues to consider this whole issue, and we will continue to make representations to them.

As to who was entered at Silverstone, here is the chronology. We began taking entry requests for the Silverstone WSM/SRM Race in January 2007. By the end of March 2007 it was obviously going to be a very popular race, and so we re-assessed the entries to date, and selected cars using the above process to confirm entries. Then, in April ‘07 we had to revisit the entire Entry List, as we had been instructed by the Classic’s organisers to ‘select big cars’ - and that meant no cars under 2000cc from the pre 66 group. Several owners therefore received rejections, which were all courteously understood.

With the grid still very full, all further entries received here after this date were added to the reserve list for the race - many of whom of course, did eventually get to race.

Conclusion:- From this office staff point of view, the new HTP system makes it very difficult to differentiate between cars merely from a first sight of its papers. For 2008 and to improve this, it may be as simple as asking on our forms:- 'Is your car a continuation car?' But for 2007 we did not do that - our oversight, for which we obviously accept responsibility.

But, we well understand that this is a minefield of technical differences and strong opinions. In order to offer maximum clarity, please note that we will now be with operating a slightly different process. By our own further oversight, please note that there is one continuation car racing in the WSM race at Nurburgring, our admission, but it is too late to remove that car now from the field without causing unnecessary planning disruption to the entrant. But, for Spa and Monteblanco we are now once more reviewing our entry and reserve lists to ensure that all of the 'Original' cars do get entries ahead of the Continuation cars.

If you do have any further thoughts or comments on this issue, please do not hesitate to drop us a line.

Kind regards,

Rachel

The Masters Series

Tel: +44 1908 587545

Fax: +44 1908 587009

[Peter Mallett]

Ty,

Once again I am impressed with this organisation's approach. I doubt that Ruston fella will be happy (wonder if he's got his dress yet?) but I do think its a good response.

I can see that having decided an approach they would need to stick to it, but actually admitting that they may need to change things is better than just making us, the cutomers deal with any anomoly.

Another pat on the back methinks. Although it doesn't affect me directly in this instance I am already looking forward to next year, we just need more seventies group 1 cars out there. And to be fair, most of those will be replicas.

[terence]

They are certainly doing thier best and deserve to make things work out.

[terence]

I thought that someone was trying to wind me up this morning! It is now possible to buy a New MGB "FIA" Bodyshell from Heritage,plus all the bits for a complete car!!.Continuation gone totally bloody mad .!!!!!! All you need is a chassis number,Sod it,I,ll put mine on blocks in the garage---------

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Ty,

I can see that having decided an approach they would need to stick to it, but actually admitting that they may need to change things is better than just making us, the cutomers deal with any anomoly.

Once again I am impressed with this organisation's approach. .... I do think its a good response.

I agree; coherent and articulate, and evidence that they take the matter seriously. Not sure we can ask much more than that at this stage!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I thought that someone was trying to wind me up this morning! It is now possible to buy a New MGB "FIA" Bodyshell from Heritage,plus all the bits for a complete car!!.Continuation gone totally bloody mad .!!!!!! All you need is a chassis number,Sod it,I,ll put mine on blocks in the garage---------

one doesn't need a chassis No . . .any old plate will do, just get any old 70's shed from BL, like a Marina for example, although they're rarer, then build an Mgb AND RIVET THE THING ON!

[rogerwills]

£3.50-4.99 on Ebay and you are sorted......

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUSTIN-MORRIS-...QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MG-Midget-MGB-...QQcmdZViewItem

[terence]

Do you think they might have a Log book to go with them. Perhaps one with an Ex-Works number,just think ,I could make a lot of money from that. .

Oh ! Sorry thats already been done

[esper]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

one doesn't need a chassis No . . .any old plate will do, just get any old 70's shed from BL, like a Marina for example, although they're rarer, then build an Mgb AND RIVET THE THING ON!

aha so we can still fabricate 30000 or more unique works replicas!!! that will make one hell of a exclusive club. and the the next 100000 continuating ones (what a terrible word) the world only gets better!!!!!!!

[Peter Mallett]

Ok,

Taking it back to first principles;

The MGB was a factory built car for sale to the general public, it wasn't a limited run prototype built for racing (B8, T70 Etc.). Zef, your car was a worn out road car that you built into a racer. To all intents and purposes yours, mine and Terry's are "continuation" cars. Actually they are replicas (better word) because we don't have original racing componentry. Nothing wrong with that as long as a) they are not made out to be original and b) they are built using original castings etc. It is surely only those who wish to defraud the public (cheat) who are the problem here.

The heritage thing is, as I understand it, only available if you have a chassis number to give them, complete with log book etc. so all you are doing is replacing new for worn out. Again cheats may well manipulate this but in its basic form I see no difference from what you two, or I have done. This just makes less work.

So personally (and I do own a 1965 registered vehicle) if I wanted to do it I could. All I would be doing is increasing the number of pre 65 eligible racers on the track.

If our problem is fraud then surely that has nothing to do with racing, which is what we are discussing here.

To be clear, I'm talking about production cars here not prototypes etc.

So to me the value of the car is in the results not the sales price, thus I really can't get worked up about originality in our production based classes (I do like the original cars btw) as long as the car meets the regs and is not depicted as anything but a replica.

[terence]

I agree to most of this Peter,you are correct about the fraudsters out there,but to my mind it,s making a mockery of the very word "Heritage".I thought that word belonged to things past ,not present.My bodyshell is 75% original,thats the way I like it ,aha ,aha.

[Peter Mallett]

The name of the company is really irrelavant, to the argument. The company only has that name beciuse its using the original bucks to produce the shells.

From a purists point of view (read pedant) I can see your point, but when you got your 75% original shell you strengthened it where you could and lightened it, also where you could (within the regs), so if these had been available to you back in the 80's you'd have done the lightening, but not needed the strengthening, along with the new floorpans (seam welded no doubt).

As it is, your car now has a racing history that commenced in the early 90's, likewise Zef's has a racing history gained over the last four years (which no doubt will be enhanced after a successful Goodwood). Mine has one from '95. Apart from us (the owners) who cares?

[terence]

OK,so we dont care about ANY form of continuation?.It boils down to the same thing,the same argument still exist,s be it a T70 or MGB.Put the original in a museum and use the registration number,sorry but I dont like the idea of kit cars.

[John Turner]

Again, agree, Peter. It's becoming a habit! Just to repeat myself (ad nauseum?), this was the categorisation that I came up with the last time we discussed this issue where there was a clear distinction between the two - see classes 3 & 4, below. I have seen little since that would seriously undermine that, and surely it is not beyond the whit of man to utilise these classes ( albeit modified or refined, if I'm missing something) as a basis for organising races that addresses the concerns of those participating. This was particularly so, since most posters generally agreed with it, when I asked the question that was posed at the end:-

Originally Posted by John Turner

I wonder if we can categorise the cars:-

1) Truly original racing cars, little changed (or not at all) from their time when they were last used in contemporary racing, perhaps only raced for a season or two. Never restored and now display the patina of their age, wear and tear. Very rare in this form and probably confined to museums and the odd demonstration.

2) Original cars with a documented provenance and history (but with maybe some gaps in 'known' history); have been subject to development, initially to keep them competitive in contemporary racing but more recently to respond to safety requirements and the demands of maintenance. Will obviously have had many components rebuilt or replaced over the years, which means of course that advantages will have been taken to utilise modern materials and tuning knowledge, for example, on the internals in an engine rebuild. May also have had to be restored after long lay off or major crash damage. These are the cars that we liken to George Washington's axe that Andrew Fellowes is concerned about. However, I suggest that this category is likely to represent a substantial proportion of cars in the historic racing scene today, along with category 3, below.

3) Replica cars based on originals; built because the originals no longer exist or are rare and prohibitively expensive to acquire for many who simply want the pleasure of enjoying historic racing. They are built using as many original components as possible and are in most respects of similar spec to those defined in 2) above; they may have been developed gradually from road cars or built from scratch with competition in mind from the outset. These are the cars referred to by Zef and his, Simon's and Peter's are examples.

4) Continuation (or 'facsimile' as Mosley calls them) cars; these are in fact new cars built by the manufacturers (or descendants!) of the originals, in short production runs to cater for demand and cash in on the burgeoning historic racing scene. Whilst built ostensibly to original specification, they will incorporate, inevitably, the use of modern knowledge and technology in terms of performance and safety.

5) Much modified original cars that are catered for by their respective car clubs and have their own series or form part of a larger series. Examples would be the glorious DB4s that slug it out at AMOC events or the more extreme versions of the MGB V8s. Probably closest in spirit to the old modsports cars.

6) Specials or perhaps, we should call these 'Goodwood' cars although they may be allowed to compete elsewhere on occasion. These are old cars modified almost beyond recognition in terms of performance (and possibly appearance). The saloon car races at the Goodwood Revival seem to contain a number of these, but the Alvis TC21/100 Grey Lady that the late Gerry Marshall drove is the outstanding example. Its performance and appearance bear little relationship to the Grey Ladies that occasionally graced saloon car racing in the 1950s. Nevertheless, a fantastic car and a joy to watch, but where, outside of Goodwood does it fit in?

Now you may regard the above categorisation as a simplification, and it is! I have no doubt we could break it down even more but where do you draw the line? I have taken no account of the regs required by different clubs or series organisers. The tyre debate is an issue clearly (see the Spa thread) and there are a number of issues around safety features in historic racing cars that have been discussed, and will no doubt continue to be discussed in other threads. The purpose of this was to contribute to the debate and see if broadly you agree with the above categories.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by terence bower

OK,so we dont care about ANY form of continuation?.It boils down to the same thing,the same argument still exist,s be it a T70 or MGB.Put the original in a museum and use the registration number,sorry but I dont like the idea of kit cars.

Of course we care Terry, which is why I said "production cars" not Prototypes like the T70 et al.

But if we follow your logic then your car (mine too) does not qualify because it wasn't an original racing car.

You missed my point re the fraudsters which is not part of our concern when discussing racing eligibility.

The plain truth is that we mostly fit John's point three.

What we all decry is John's point 4 because they will have new castings and body panels etc. Completely new cars in fact and the only connection to history is the shape/design.

Now I suspect the MGB that prompted your ire is the one that crashed at Silverstone.

I'm sure the car will be using a totally original block and gearbox casing, head etc. so I really do struggle to see the problem. Spend 5k on a heritage shell or 7k restoring a rust bucket?

For me its a no brainer, for you, with the necessary skills and indeed time, it may be a different issue.

But the car as finished will be about as original as 6DBL. And if you recall, I think I worked out that there were three of those.

[graeme]

Originally Posted by john ruston

No point in paying 150K for a B8 with a history when people will knock out a good copy for 80k.

So is this just about people with (original) cars with over-inflated prices trying to protect their investment? I don't see much sympathy for people who try to make a few quid out of the housing market, then have their fingers burnt. IIRC Tom Wheatcroft built his Bugatti Royale from scratch because the prices of the originals were blown out of all proportion.

[zefarelly]

The MG club strongly advised us to restore rather than reshell a mk2/3 midget, so therefore a 7k resto is better than a 5k reshell IMO as the value of the car will reflect it at the end of the day, look at the value of LC's, reshelss struggle to better 10k but a restored original will hit 20k

[Peter Mallett]

Yeah, but that's for a "classic" car not a racing car which is going to be stripped out anyway. This thread is about racing cars not money.

[terence]

At least you understand Zef,Is there a difference between Racing Cars and money.I thought that it was "He with the Deepest Pocket Win,s".

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yeah, but that's for a "classic" car not a racing car which is going to be stripped out anyway. This thread is about racing cars not money.

same difference, and unfortunately the money side is intrinsically linked with racing cars, all cars really, replacement should be a last resort not an easy option.

[esper]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I agree to most of this Peter,you are correct about the fraudsters out there,but to my mind it,s making a mockery of the very word "Heritage".I thought that word belonged to things past ,not present.My bodyshell is 75% original,thats the way I like it ,aha ,aha.

and the last 25% make it a fast dancing queen.