T Break thread 2023

[grantp]

Had to look up the A7 Cambridge.

A sweet-looking little thing.

A progress thread would be great.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Every bubble bursts. And now cars are so fast and enforcement so tight that you will lose your licence in a blink if you use even a fraction of what's available so unless you go on track it's a total waste of money. Why spend so much on something that you can't drive as it's intended ?

I'm sure there's going to be a softening in 60/70s car prices too as the generation changes.

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How many of them are bought mainly for "investment", often meaning simply to be able to boast one has one with the potential that it might even have been driven a little.

It looks like the "supercar" industry relies on many buyers, or people driving the buyer's car, to wreck them very early in their lives. Basically living off the back of insurance money or leaving finance companies to recover costs from buyers that have far too much money available.

It's not a "proper" market at all, in a sense that mere mortals can fully understand.

As for the older stuff. I think you are right, Max.

60s and 70s stuff is a passion where the cost of even average refurbishment will most likely be far more than any increase in value will deliver. And then repeat a few years later.

It's also something of a dead end for the future, as far as a hobby is concerned, as modern vehicles become unrepairable to original specifications as parts and software required disappear.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Every bubble bursts. And now cars are so fast and enforcement so tight that you will lose your licence in a blink if you use even a fraction of what's available so unless you go on track it's a total waste of money. Why spend so much on something that you can't drive as it's intended ?

I'm sure there's going to be a softening in 60/70s car prices too as the generation changes.

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If you've seen the various photos I've posted from the Cars and Coffee meetings you'll see there are very few cars older than 1980. Talking to the organisers, they agree that older cars are too difficult to maintain and run, if the car in question is your only car. Hence more recent BMWs, Fords, VWs and the like are quite popular. The exception appears to be the original mini which even now can be found in various states of modification. I note that MGB's are being estimated at auction for around £5k when a year ago you'd expect £7-10k.

[Gerard C]

Agreed but sometimes "estimation" is rather low to catch potential buyers' attention. You have to ponderate with the reserve price and the real market price is what they went for. A "B" in very good condition is worth much more than £10K imo. (for you, Peter, I avoided the VGC acronym.).

[Peter Mallett]

Well that's understood Gerard, but in line with Max's post, a short time ago, you couldn't sell a reasonable XJ-S for more than £5k, today that would be £10k. Some are still going at the lower end but more and more are seeing higher values. Moving into "the collector" area perhaps? Alternatively, a Mk2 3.4 in good condition is now around £15k. Exceptional examples are around £40k but they appear to need some history. E Types also appear to be reducing.

What is also worth noting, is the longevity of cars these days. Back in the 50s and 60s a ten year old car was a scrapper. Now? A Jaguar XK V8 5.0 2013 will set you back around £15-20k and you can have it serviced regularly by a dealer. That said, as Grant pointed out, cars these days are so difficult to repair, they tend to get written off for the slightest damage.

[grantp]

I wonder if the XJS's are benefitting from some "recent refurbishment" activity in the past decade, or maybe a bit less.

So if a fan bought a "decent" one for about 2 or 3 k back then, spent money on it and is now moving on to something else/another hobby/died, and it's now for sale again at 10k. But what if they spent 10k (or more) on it?

A new punter might think a relatively recent refurb, done well, would be good value at 10k, written off to 0 over 10 years.

Not unlike my old family 1800 Land Crab. Someone bought it after it had been sitting and rusting for some yearsafter my mother parted with it about 20+ years ago.

They spent about £9k on it making it into a "World Cup Rally" replica (of sorts. Just the look, not the competition spec.) and then sold it at an auction where it achieved about £4,500 (from memory).

[Gerard C]

From Max, Peter and Grant last posts what is obvious is that you market prices, specially for the cars/brads named by Peter, are much lower than they are here. Your market is more active than ours. And I don't think its all about prices, in my opinion its about people. Finding a proper mechanic, sourcing high quality parts is quite a hassle in F but this doesn't explain all. Its a question of attitude. Sadly.

[John Elwin]

Are you all rushing off to the NEC this weekend to check-out current values?

[Mike Harte]

What worries me somewhat, and I don't know if this applies with other auctions around the UK, but it seems that sales at the Bangers and Cash site end up with quite a few or a lot of older cars seeming to be bought by a number of, obviously, quite wealthy individuals who then stick the cars in warehouses and then, possibly, never seem again by the public.

And the comments from those buyers is that they are saving them for posterity so that those who won't have seen them in period will know what was being driven in the past. That's OK if they are in a museum open to the public, and they are driven in public from time to time, but not in they are in a locked up warehouse and never see the light of day. And this does contribute to the rising prices of some cars.

I know that this was a criticism made to Bernie Ecclestone about his collection of F1 cars, but he did listen and, to be fair to him, he does now permit them to come out to play, at least, at Historic Monaco.

[GORDON STREETER]

The guy in the next unit to me has been restoring MGBs for years and takes a lot of time and trouble to get them right. However he is almost 80 years old and obviously doing it just for the fun factor rather than sitting indoors watching the box. He openly admits that if the hours that it takes him were taken into account people would wonder why he bothers.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

He openly admits that if the hours that it takes him were taken into account people would wonder why he bothers.

Probably at almost 80 he doesn't bother what people can think about this. And he's right to.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

Are you all rushing off to the NEC this weekend to check-out current values?

I'm going today, there is an auction but I doubt I'll look at it. Hoping to view some interesting cars and chat with a few petrol heads.

[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'm going today, there is an auction but I doubt I'll look at it. Hoping to view some interesting cars and chat with a few petrol heads.

A friend who was there on, I think, Thursday says it seemed to be rather busier than last year, at least in terms of footfall.

[Lancsbreaker]

Thursday is set-up day........Public not allowed until Friday

[Peter Mallett]

As ever, I took a few pics which I'll post in the Classic car shows thread later. Spoke to a number of people, including Scholar Engines. Apparently they still prepare and repair the old FF1600 engines alongside some pretty awesome large volume units. There was an XK V8 Protfolio with 2500 miles on the clock asking price? £45k. Saw the auction but didn't hang around, did notice one or two numbers with 6 figures so probably a good day overall. The XJS stand had a Daimler XJ-S which is apparently unique and belongs to the Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust.

Spoke to a couple of chaps on the Young MGCC stand who told me that they were talking to an older MG person who wanted to sign them up because they were under 50! Fortunately they do want to join but hadn't any idea if there were any events and meetings near them (Bedford). The lady on the stand gave them some pointers.

Talking MG there was a fair selection of Maestros but not many Metros.

Lots of series one E Types going for anything up to £120k, some of them were extremely pretty. Apart from the aforementioned XK most of that type were sitting between £22 and 25k.

The Pride of Ownership had some eclectic vehicles. A 1300GTmk1 Escort with a Fuel injected engine of some description. A lowered Imp with extremely large negative camber and a couple of American Custom Cars. I voted for the mostly standard Series 3 E Type.

I've just invested in an outside air pod for my Jaguar. I'd been looking on line for ages. Now wherever I go, as happened yesterday, I see all sorts of different designs and manufacturers!

Poignantly there was a 2mins silence at 11am and the whole place just stopped. Well done.

Overall it was an enjoyable day and I spent most of it smiling at the sheer quality of the machinery on display.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by delta

Well said Max . Agree with you .I don’t have a road car , I do have two broken race trucks and three vans . Few push bikes . I really fancy an Austin Seven and this winter we have a Seven Cambridge coming in for rebuild . Mrs Delta not that keen and always says we should get another motor bike . The Cambridge is a little sports car so I’m hoping she will come round to the idea . Might start a new thread with the progress . ?

I feel your pain. I don't have a road car either and having just spent £2k on my 13 year old Sprinter, I'm not likely to If you want to get into big money, get into vans.....even broken ones sell for stupid amounts. Hence keeping mine going rather than buy another.

Haven't ever got to the Classic Car Show yet, perhaps next year will be "my year" to that and Spa 6 Hour weekend

It does t surprise me to hear about the modern classics taking over. You go for the car of your youth.

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[Gerard C]

Can be either the car or bike you've been dreaming about in your youth and could not afford (or mmum did not want!). We have some clubs here, people want dad's car, typical of new collectors of Peugeot 403 and Simca's too. Moving.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

As ever, I took a few pics which I'll post in the Classic car shows thread later.


The Pride of Ownership had some eclectic vehicles. A 1300GTmk1 Escort with a Fuel injected engine of some description. A lowered Imp with extremely large negative camber and a couple of American Custom Cars. I voted for the mostly standard Series 3 E Type.

Poignantly there was a 2mins silence at 11am and the whole place just stopped. Well done.

Overall it was an enjoyable day and I spent most of it smiling at the sheer quality of the machinery on display.

Missed it this year - last few times I've been I was manning the Alfa Romeo OC stand and that gets a bit frustrating because you never seem to get chance for anything other than the briefest of trips round the (ever-larger) show Look forward to your pictures....


Saw pictures of the lowered Imp - it seems a popular mod with the younger members and there is some impressive (pun intended ) engineering on some of them.


I've always found the observance of the 11am silence to be pretty much perfect - one year some young foreign visitors didn't understand but a quiet word soon got them on board.......

[Mike Harte]

I've just seen on Facebook that a MK1 RS2000 sold at auction for £108,000 including fees. That to me means that someone has more money than sense!

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I've just seen on Facebook that a MK1 RS2000 sold at auction for £108,000 including fees. That to me means that someone has more money than sense!

A very long time ago (25+ years) I bought a Mk1 RS 2000 for one of my customers, from Mathewson's in Yorkshire (way before they ever dreamt of 'Bangers & Cash'!).

The car was mint, original & extremely low mileage, about 8K miles I seem to remember - still wore its original Dunlop SP Sports and had the PDI stickers inside the windscreen.

How much did I pay for this timewarp gem? £8K from memory, and I remember thinking at the time that this was a crazy amount of money for a Mk1 Escort. How little I knew! Escorts that, in my youth, we used to buy for peanuts, crash them, blow them up and throw them away to buy another one because they were so cheap.

But it gets worse: a similarly long time ago, I also bought a Mk2 RS 1800 - yes, the holy grail of all RWD Escorts with the Cosworth BDA engine, or maybe they called it a BDG by then, can't remember. Anyway, this car had won the RSOC national concours a year or two earlier, so that gives you some idea of its condition & provenance - it was truly mint. So what extortionate sum of money did I have to part with for what would, today, be a priceless gem? £10K...

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Paul D

A very long time ago (25+ years)

But it gets worse: a similarly long time ago, I also bought a Mk2 RS 1800 - yes, the holy grail of all RWD Escorts with the Cosworth BDA engine, or maybe they called it a BDG by then, can't remember. Anyway, this car had won the RSOC national concours a year or two earlier, so that gives you some idea of its condition & provenance - it was truly mint. So what extortionate sum of money did I have to part with for what would, today, be a priceless gem? £10K...

£10k was a lot of purchasing power back then.

Somewhere between inflation and devaluation it's probably around £30k+ now.

Add an average £2k a year (if mainly stored) for garaging, insurance and age fettling, adjusted for inflation and devaluation and wonder about the comparative values.

On the plus side, one might have been able to retain more of the value invested than has been possible with the average accepted investment strategy available to the unpoor but not extremely wealthy.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I've just seen on Facebook that a MK1 RS2000 sold at auction for £108,000 including fees. That to me means that someone has more money than sense!

+ 1

[Lancsbreaker]

MSUK starred again today........envelope correctly addressed to me arrived, cover note inside urging me to sign up to renew my Competition licence (I haven't done for the last two years - I wonder how long they'll keep trying) - so I looked at the renewal document - which was addressed to someone completely different, at a different address, although only a couple of miles away, as it happens.


As it had his details on including phone number, I texted him to let him know and say I'd be happy to drop the form around.......but apparently he's already had his renewal notice



Also phoned MSUK to let them know....took me a while to get the young lady to understand what had happened, and I suggested that if the mailsort programme had misfired they would likely get a few more complaints.......she claimed it was the first she's heard of......


Which just confirms what I've thought - I'm unique!

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Which just confirms what I've thought - I'm unique!

Oh yes, absolutely no doubt about that!

[Peter Mallett]

Going back to the NEC Show, I spoke to some folks on the Autodrome Linas-Montlhery stand. 2024 is their centenery year and there is a full programme of events throughout the year culminating in the "Festival Centenaire" on October 11 and 12th. Anyone interested can contact them on publicevents.fr@utac.com.

This is the calendar.