Rosberg vs Hamilton

[Razzzor]

To me, comparing Nuvolari to Hamilton is like comparing lawn bowls to pool. or dirt track racing to sports cars.

the best driver up until the 70s/80s could have been some backmarker that never pushed beyond 80% because he valued his life much more than the guys at the front. it wasn't just about being the fastest driver, but being the one who risked the most.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yes I get the feeling Vettel just didn't care anymore, and wasn't putting in 100%. He could still do a quick lap occasionally after pitting, but after that his pace would drop off rapidly while Dani just kept on going with decent laps. Instead of changing his style he did nothing, and really ended the season even slower than he started, compared to Ricciardo. At round 2 he was fighting for pole, and that's the closest he ever got.

My estimation of the top 3 this year has changed with Rosberg being slightly closer to Hamilton than I was expecting. Considering Schumacher was every bit as fast as Rosberg in their last season together, does that mean a Schumacher in his 40s would have taken it right down to the wire with a Lewis in his absolute prime? Ah probably wishful thinking, Rosberg was probably having an average season in 2012.

Alonso did better than I expected as well compared to Kimi, I mean he was always going to beat him, but Kimi just got thrashed this year. I'm surprised Ferrari even want to keep him, if he can't drive their car, and they can't change it, then hire someone who can. Being within a few seconds at Abu Dhabi was almost his best effort. But I think Alonso probably was losing interest by seasons end as well and just wants those McLaren overalls on and put the disappointment of wasting 5 years without a title with Ferrari behind him.

My overall ranking:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Rosberg
5. Ricciardo

Ricciardo was the best performance of the year, but I'd have to see how he goes with Kyvat and no Adrian Newey for a few years before putting him near the top 3. Kyvat might push him more than Vettel did.

Last year I definitely would have put Vettel 2 but he's definitely lost that after his poor performance and ability to adapt in 2014.

After this year I certainly couldn't rate Vettel number 3 in the current field nor could I justify rating him higher than Ricciardo.

Comparing drivers in different cars or from different eras is hugely subjective. Comparing drivers in the same team at the same time in the same car is not. Sometimes they might be hard to split but sometimes there is essentially no room to even have a debate. Alonso is clearly better than Kimi and I would argue Ricciardo is clearly better than Vettel. You could point to reliability issues for vettel and say that explains why he couldn't get close to Ricciardo in the driver standings but did anyone who watched these two this year think Vettel was the better driver who just got unlucky? Seriously...

Might Kimi have been quicker than Alonso if the car suited him more, would Vettel have beaten Ricciardi if they were competing in an Exhaust Blown car? Who knows but I do know who was the better driver this year in the current cars between these two sets of teammates.

[wnut]

Very disappointing, Seb's complete failure to turn up this year!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by bauble

"It's all subjective of course, but as Bob says, it's not all about statistics. As far as I am concerned the greatest driver never won a single F1 World Championship, and I bet I don't even have to name him." -John Turner.

I have said it before, John, and I repeat it here;

Nuvolari, Fangio, Moss. On a pedestal.

Now you can sort out your top ten.

Any way, what do you mean finally own up?

I have never made any secret about being a Silly Old Fool!

We are getting a little off topic but there seems a natural flow to this discussion so let's see how it goes!

My pedestal would be a bit larger since I would have to include, Clark, Stewart and Prost. There will also be those who would want to include Senna and Schumacher but great drivers though they were they had an on track ruthlessness that took them over the line ethically and which their great ability clearly did not need them to do.

By reference to you owning up, there are those who won't know you Bob, who failed to spot the sarcasm in your posts eulogising Hamilton. I'm already a silly old fool despite being 12 years younger.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Yes I get the feeling Vettel just didn't care anymore, and wasn't putting in 100%. He could still do a quick lap occasionally after pitting, but after that his pace would drop off rapidly while Dani just kept on going with decent laps. Instead of changing his style he did nothing, and really ended the season even slower than he started, compared to Ricciardo. At round 2 he was fighting for pole, and that's the closest he ever got.

My estimation of the top 3 this year has changed with Rosberg being slightly closer to Hamilton than I was expecting. Considering Schumacher was every bit as fast as Rosberg in their last season together, does that mean a Schumacher in his 40s would have taken it right down to the wire with a Lewis in his absolute prime? Ah probably wishful thinking, Rosberg was probably having an average season in 2012.

Alonso did better than I expected as well compared to Kimi, I mean he was always going to beat him, but Kimi just got thrashed this year. I'm surprised Ferrari even want to keep him, if he can't drive their car, and they can't change it, then hire someone who can. Being within a few seconds at Abu Dhabi was almost his best effort. But I think Alonso probably was losing interest by seasons end as well and just wants those McLaren overalls on and put the disappointment of wasting 5 years without a title with Ferrari behind him.

My overall ranking:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Rosberg
5. Ricciardo

Ricciardo was the best performance of the year, but I'd have to see how he goes with Kyvat and no Adrian Newey for a few years before putting him near the top 3. Kyvat might push him more than Vettel did.

Last year I definitely would have put Vettel 2 but he's definitely lost that after his poor performance and ability to adapt in 2014.

Don't disagree with that assessment of Seb Vet. This season seems to have rubbed off some of his young enthusiastic knowledgeable approach and he has become quite surly in some interviews. Whilst you cannot deny the skills that brought him 4 World Championships it seems to have spoilt him. The other world champions on that grid have all at some point in their careers driven cars that were either pretty average or did not suit them and they have all handled it with rather more good grace. This season, I wouldn't even put him as high as 3rd on that list, and certainly I'd promote Ricciardo to that position, and I would also put Button and Bottas, amongst others, above Vettel for this season's efforts.

Originally Posted by Razzzor

To me, comparing Nuvolari to Hamilton is like comparing lawn bowls to pool. or dirt track racing to sports cars.

the best driver up until the 70s/80s could have been some backmarker that never pushed beyond 80% because he valued his life much more than the guys at the front. it wasn't just about being the fastest driver, but being the one who risked the most.

True, but it was ever thus, in comparing drivers from different eras when the skills needed were different. We will always enjoy that debate even though it gets us nowhere!

However, I don't agree with the last bit, because we cannot judge a driver if we don't know his ultimate pace and if he holds back to that extent surely by that reason alone he is proving that his mindset as a racing driver is not that required of a great one. I do agree that there are some drivers who have over driven and the classic example I always trot out is Stefan Bellof, whose driving skills outweighed his mental capacity to control them and he sadly paid the ultimate price!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
To me, comparing Nuvolari to Hamilton is like comparing lawn bowls to pool. or dirt track racing to sports cars.

I never intended to make any comparisons with my 'pedestal' other than that FOR ME Nuvolari, Fangio, and Moss were all in a totally different league to any other driver. Like John everyone has there own pedestal, but I will stick with my 'Gods', all the others are mere mortals.

John, not completely 'off topic', but it occurs to me that every driver on the grid has his supporters "Given the right car ****** could be World Champion."

However, no one polarises fans so much as Lewis Hamilton. The best way I can put it (and please accept the terminology as guide only) is the some view Lewis through rose tinted spectacles, and some view Hamilton (Yeah me as well) through a glass darkly.

I doubt that any amount of argument will shift either side.

But now the season is over what else have we got to do?

[bella]

i don't view him through rose tinted spectacles. i hold him in high regard because he's a sound bloke at the core, not a sound bloke on the outside and a bit of a prat at the core. like quite a few people on the forum and in the world at large i spent a bit of time with him in his formative years, and as such he makes a lot more sense. he's the same bloke trying to handle himself in the same way as he always did.

i'd rate him higher than alonso for that reason. alonso has kind of let his ability get to his head a bit and has a bit of a god complex. lewis is ultimately a lot more grounded.

[John Turner]

Interesting and useful inside info, there, bella. Bob's wrong about us all being polarised one way or t'other though, because although I have not been a particular fan of Lewis over the years, still recognised his exceptional ability. This year, he has converted me to a certain extent and I think he has been excellent. I admire Nico too, but in reality, I think that he has really struggled in the races to hold on to Lewis's coat tails most of the time.

[bella]

totally agree with you about rosberg, john. the guy has a lot of ability, and will buxton's pre-abu dhabi blog about him gives a really interesting insight into some of his off-track abilities too. his mind games are more subtle than lewis', and kind of like schumacher, he just ends up looking a bit devious because they appear more calculated. it's not the case, but that's how it looks to us sat on the outside.

for me there's something about lewis' girlfriend situation that doesn't ring true with who he is - i figured because he's so "both feet on the ground" he'd end up with someone who had known him all along. to me the bits about his personality that make everyone cringe are the traits that he's picked up from nicole.

[rwintle]

And there I was thinking that the great, non-championship-winning driver you were talking about was Villeneuve (not my pick BTW, just who I thought was meant).

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bella

for me there's something about lewis' girlfriend situation that doesn't ring true with who he is - i figured because he's so "both feet on the ground" he'd end up with someone who had known him all along. to me the bits about his personality that make everyone cringe are the traits that he's picked up from nicole.

I saw this today

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorspo...26-11tyw5.html

[garcon]

I was going to ask if that article was meant to be ironic, then I remembered it was from Australia...

[Paradise City]

I don't know if Hamilton polarises people really. When Hamilton acts up, fans get aggravated, when Hamilton gets his head in the game, he's praised.

He gets dragged through the celebrity pages mind you - all that gossipy garbage has to be waded through if you've a free email. I'd be lying if I said I was immune to a certain residue of resentment on that front. But ultimately Hamilton isn't a bad lad and is a genuinely rapid peddler.

[steve_r]

Classy article from the Aussie gutter press. It's nice to know the British papers are not the only ones who can get away with spouting bile-filled gibberish.

[Greem]

Interesting to see that comments on that article are largely along the lines of "Huh? really? All because of one look?".

All fluff, no substance. Funny, isn't it, how Hamilton gets such a hammering when others don't? Even in football the end-of-season jealousy from beaten teams is usually underwritten with good humour.

[numbersix]

I met the young man a couple of years back at Silverstone while I was dressed in the most gorgeous colours on any racetrack - orange. And he was charming, well-mannered and took time out to chat to a lowly volunteer.

This is a lot more than I can say for some of the other drivers I have had the misfortune to meet, but they were usually from TOCA.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Casper

I saw this today

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorspo...26-11tyw5.html

I saw some bovine excrement in that article today. I like how the writer is somehow a mind reader and knows exactly what Lewis's look meant.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Casper

I saw this today

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorspo...26-11tyw5.html

Journalism reaches new heights.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bella

totally agree with you about rosberg, john. the guy has a lot of ability, and will buxton's pre-abu dhabi blog about him gives a really interesting insight into some of his off-track abilities too. his mind games are more subtle than lewis', and kind of like schumacher, he just ends up looking a bit devious because they appear more calculated. it's not the case, but that's how it looks to us sat on the outside.

for me there's something about lewis' girlfriend situation that doesn't ring true with who he is - i figured because he's so "both feet on the ground" he'd end up with someone who had known him all along. to me the bits about his personality that make everyone cringe are the traits that he's picked up from nicole.

YOU are so smart... I mean it...

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I saw some bovine excrement in that article today. I like how the writer is somehow a mind reader and knows exactly what Lewis's look meant.

Yes.
Some journalists have a unique skill that enables them to read peoples minds and decipher their motives without anyone knowing they are doing it.

They are also able to reflect exactly what the person is thinking and why they do it, without ever making a mistake....

And the Will Hoy quote?

I wonder about journalists who assume that every celebrity / sport person / name / public figure they come across is always going to be respectful and consumed more with making them (the journo ) happy rather than focussing on the job, task or situation they are in.

And any slight or brusqueness of course is always because the journo is a paragon of virtue (aren't they all?) and good manners themselves, who would never show disrespect or disinterest in another human being under any circumstances....

[Paradise City]

It's some garbage some goofball wrote somewhere in the middle of cyberland. It's not worth posting here even.

I don't mind that Nicole lady btw. She's a nice girl by most accounts. Just hope that careers of hers takes off so we don't have to be burdened by endless shots of her scrunchin' her face in anxiety during the broadcast as Hambo does his thing.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Classy article from the Aussie gutter press. It's nice to know the British papers are not the only ones who can get away with spouting bile-filled gibberish.

The article was written by British journalist and rugby columnist Mark Reason who now resides and works in New Zealand!

[garcon]

Well, based on that one article I think he's an absolute ****.

(See what I did there? )

[John Turner]

Agreed, a complete arse.

Lewis admitted in all the noise and euphoria he had barely been aware of Prince Harry congratulating him over the radio. Quite understandable really and he made up for it after, when it was drawn to his attention. Furthermore, one incident with your own interpretation of a look and the disdainful 'me, me me' comment says more about the writer than the subject of his bias (bile?). Rather than concluding LH as arrogant, I'd have to consider that journo as ignorant.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Yes.
Some journalists have a unique skill that enables them to read peoples minds and decipher their motives without anyone knowing they are doing it.

there's also plenty of journalists who know the person in question and who can interpret their actions accordingly. though knowing the person in question tends to be what stops them creating spurious copy at that friendships expense in the first place

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I don't mind that Nicole lady btw. She's a nice girl by most accounts. Just hope that careers of hers takes off so we don't have to be burdened by endless shots of her scrunchin' her face in anxiety during the broadcast as Hambo does his thing.

by most accounts? gracious. i must be listening to the wrong jungle drums. you're right about the copious girlfriend, wife, brother and father shots during the race though. that needs to stop.

[chillibowl]

im in the minority because i really like seeing the drivers' loved ones at the track. i find it humanizing and anti corporate that there are people who get to bring their loved ones to work with them.

Nico's gf/wife was at like every race this year, miss seeing JB's dad walking around, love how every nice thing you can say about Massa can be seen every time we see his dad's face, loved how his kid had a 'my dad drives a Williams' shirt on in Brazil, the entire Williams team is a family affair (maybe why they are favorite team)...heck racing as a whole is predominantly a family affair.

when did that start becoming a bad thing?

LH during Thursday's press conference before Abu Dhabi:

Q: (Haoran Zhou - F1 Express) Lewis, do have any family with you this weekend, because generally you perform better, you smile a lot more when you have family around? That’s just a personal observation but I just want to know does the whole family come to Abu Dhabi for this important weekend?
LH: I have a couple of friends and I think one or two cousins in the grandstands and I’ve got a close friend that’s with me in the paddock but otherwise no other family here.


of course some will think he was lying there but im inclined to think he was telling the truth. he came to the weekend focused on the job at hand, kept his family at a distance, and he nor his loved ones deserve any criticism for what the Director of the World Feed decided made for good tv.