IMSA Race TUSC Round 2: The Mobil 1 12 Hours of Sebring

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Probably the only thing funded by Panoz after ALMS is done is DW IMO. And Road Atlanta is his major source of profit.

Nope, Road Atlanta went in the deal. In fact, it was the biggest asset.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

In response to JHamilton and anyone else who has not read (or skipped over) my many complaints on this topic:

I think everyone who really follows the series knows, and also it was explained perfectly earlier in this thread: There are two sets of wave-arounds.


I am done with this topic---I don't want to annoy my fellow posters.

Yes, I realize you can pit now. That's the difference. I followed Grand-Am as well. And I still think it is six of one, half dozen of another and, as I said earlier, that the implementation is problem with the length of the cautions.

Too late. I found your post to be quite insulting.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Nope, Road Atlanta went in the deal. In fact, it was the biggest asset.

So Panoz sold Road Atlanta, the badge of ALMS as well as Petit Le Mans all to NASCAR?

[LouisTheShark]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

So Panoz sold Road Atlanta, the badge of ALMS as well as Petit Le Mans all to NASCAR?

Yes

[GT-Eins]

We tried to give a more detailed look on the Sebring BoP in a recent article:
http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...=9152&Itemid=1



Not quite the Topspeed-differences we had than in Daytona. Without Yellows the ESM would have won, as the laptime-chart in the article reveals..

By the way: our full Sebring-report can be accessed via this link:
http://www.gt-eins.de/Berichte2014/u...g/sebring.html

[PabloTeK]

Seems IMSA need to make a very (and I do mean very) small adjustment to the DPs power IMO, just to make it a little more even for the big tracks where straight line speed does matter. Although this probably won't be such an issue at the next two tracks.

Once the racing got under way, it was actually very good, just a shame that it seems that half the PC field were intent on removing themselves from the "race"! The SC periods were also wayyy too long at a general minimum of about half an hour.

If it was me the pit *entry* would always be open (unless there's an issue in pit lane), but the exit would be closed apart from a window after the tail of the SC train passes the pit exit. Whilst it does mean you could go a lap down, it reduces the faffing of pits being open for Class A, B, next lap C etc and the potential for a Montoya-style crash leaving the pits.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

In response to JHamilton and anyone else who has not read (or skipped over) my many complaints on this topic:

I think everyone who really follows the series knows, and also it was explained perfectly earlier in this thread: There are two sets of wave-arounds.

One is to prevent classes from being split by the pace car, something which happened often and raised much ire in ALMS until the wave-around was instituted. This wave-around prevents cars from losing almost a whole lap just because the pace car enters the track ahead of them but behind the class-leading car, thus sending the trailing cars to the back of the pack when before the yellow flag they might have been only a few car-lengths behind the leader.

No one got a "free lap." Teams had to choose between pitting under yellow and giving up track position, or staying out and getting waved by. This added a layer of strategy and also kept teams from getting screwed by the luck of the draw as to when the pace car entered the track relative to the class leaders.

I see this as an excellent innovation and a huge improvement.

Grand-Am and now TUSC also uses the "Lap-down Wave-by" (google it, don't take my word) in which cars which are a lap down are allowed to pit under yellow and also get waved around the class leader before the track goes back to green, thus letting these cars get a lap back not through racing but via the rules. A car can physically get lapped by the class leader and then be right back on the class leader's wing after the next restart even if it never gained an inch or a second on track.

Maybe I misunderstand when I think some people don't realize this. In that case I sincerely apologize.

If people do realize this is happening I cannot see how anyone can accept it. It is equivalent to giving a free touchdown after every quarter, a free goal after the half, or a free run after every inning to the losing team in football, football, and baseball.

In those or any other sport the idea of giving the losing team free points just because they are losing is so ridiculous no one would ever take it seriously. In TUSC, it is considered an ingenious idea to improve the Entertainment Value, because apparently real racing is not important.

When a team like ESM goes all-out in the closing laps to try to win, laying down repeated fastest laps, and another team like Action Express tries to answer with its own fastest laps, we are seeing great racing by adults. When a team which has not gone all-out gets to hang in their with the people who risked all and performed to higher levels, we are watching the racing equivalent of toddlers playing T-Ball, where everyone wins.

Guess why T-Ball isn't televised? People like to see the extreme efforts that Earning a win in pro-level sports pulls out of the competitors. No one is going to dig deeper than ever before to eke out another hundredth of a second per lap or a slightly quicker pit stop if the team in the next pit stall can keep up by being sloppy and capitalizing on the LDWB,

Ganassi won by sheer luck, but that was racing luck. Maybe if the final caution period had been a bit shorter, they might have run out of fuel, but they were less than ten minutes over their normal stint length so even a couple minutes less yellow might not have mattered. I do not begrudge them the win---racing luck broke their way.

That said, I would rather see three cars on the lead lap and know they all got their by extraordinary effort and excellent strategy than see nine cars there, knowing most of them simply did not deserve to be there.

I am done with this topic---I don't want to annoy my fellow posters.

Thanks!

[EricS]

Wow, Marshal Pruett and Graham Goodwin not holding back any punches today on MWM re: TUSC at Sebring

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by EricS

Wow, Marshal Pruett and Graham Goodwin not holding back any punches today on MWM re: TUSC at Sebring

Beat me to it! Was just about to say the exact same. It needs to be said, I have a photographer friend who is dying to share what he is hearing from teams and things overhead from those within the series but is afraid at the fear of losing credentials. This IS Nascab.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Yes, I realize you can pit now. That's the difference. I followed Grand-Am as well. And I still think it is six of one, half dozen of another and, as I said earlier, that the implementation is problem with the length of the cautions.

Too late. I found your post to be quite insulting.

How can it be six of one, a half dozen of another? I understand and accept the wave by to keep from penalizing the lower classes, but the wave by plus allowing pitting under caution does indeed give a free lap to teams. As Maleochs has elegantly stated, this is not competition. As it stands, the only thing a team needs to be concerned about is not totaling the car, because as we saw last year at Daytona, a car SEVEN laps down can end up on the lead lap and never pass the lead car! That is not sport, it is a manufactured show.

I don't care how "efficiently" the IMSA wave around is implemented if it gives laps to teams that did not earn them. Might as well stick to Historic racing in the States. No passes allowed in corners, zero contact of any sort and just watch and listen to some cool cars parade around the track.

Adopt the WEC caution rules for sure, but even that procedure might not shorten the caution periods with IMSA's ineptitude.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

Seems IMSA need to make a very (and I do mean very) small adjustment to the DPs power IMO

Why not reduce their fuel capacity and refueling speed to even things out a bit more? Let efficiency enter the equation.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Why not reduce their fuel capacity and refueling speed to even things out a bit more? Let efficiency enter the equation.

Because the green flag racing segments aren't long enough for a fuel run, and the DPs can just motor on by on a restart anyway.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by EricS

Wow, Marshal Pruett and Graham Goodwin not holding back any punches today on MWM re: TUSC at Sebring

Really what did they say?is there a replay anywhere??

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

How can it be six of one, a half dozen of another? I understand and accept the wave by to keep from penalizing the lower classes, but the wave by plus allowing pitting under caution does indeed give a free lap to teams. As Maleochs has elegantly stated, this is not competition. As it stands, the only thing a team needs to be concerned about is not totaling the car, because as we saw last year at Daytona, a car SEVEN laps down can end up on the lead lap and never pass the lead car! That is not sport, it is a manufactured show.

I don't care how "efficiently" the IMSA wave around is implemented if it gives laps to teams that did not earn them. Might as well stick to Historic racing in the States. No passes allowed in corners, zero contact of any sort and just watch and listen to some cool cars parade around the track.

Adopt the WEC caution rules for sure, but even that procedure might not shorten the caution periods with IMSA's ineptitude.

"A Car is eligible for the LDWB if it was one or more whole lap(s) down from its class leader on the first full lap of yellow; if it has not pitted during the yellow; and if it is in the line behind the Safety Car but in front of the first Car in its class that is on the lead lap."

That treats each class race independently. No free laps but you get to maintain your lap, just as you would in single class racing. Meaning the safety car would pick up the leader and if you were in front of the leader you would come around to the back of the line. That was the intent of the wave-by and why it was implemented. I have no problem with that.

Also, neither HSR or SVRA have rules against passing in corners.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Really what did they say?is there a replay anywhere??

http://www.radiolemans.com/

podcast are on the right.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Thanks!

[mimi1969]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Why not reduce their fuel capacity and refueling speed to even things out a bit more? Let efficiency enter the equation.

They did increase the fuel capacity and increase refueling rate for the P2 prior to Sebring.

[EricS]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

"A Car is eligible for the LDWB if it was one or more whole lap(s) down from its class leader on the first full lap of yellow; if it has not pitted during the yellow; and if it is in the line behind the Safety Car but in front of the first Car in its class that is on the lead lap."

That treats each class race independently. No free laps but you get to maintain your lap, just as you would in single class racing. Meaning the safety car would pick up the leader and if you were in front of the leader you would come around to the back of the line. That was the intent of the wave-by and why it was implemented. I have no problem with that.

Please go read previous posts about this or at least the section of the rulebook. We have explained this numerous times here. But I guess we'll keep trying to spoonfeed you the details...

You are thinking of the regular waveby prior to pits opening, that preserves class battles. There are 2 sets of wavebys that IMSA does during every yellow: "pass around" prior to opening the pits which preserves class battles and "LDWB" after regular sequence of pits. Read Article 47.2.2 for the "pass around" details. 47.2.5.B for the "LDWB".

You are missing a point when you reading this phrase:

...and if it is in the line behind the Safety Car but in front of the first Car in its class that is on the lead lap.

This will always happen for a car a lap down that doesn't pit, while all cars in its class on the lead lap pit. And the main gripe we all have this this??? Cars that take advantage of the LDWB are then ALLOWED TO PIT UNDER FCY after they complete their wave by.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by EricS

Please go read previous posts about this or at least the section of the rulebook. We have explained this numerous times here. But I guess we'll keep trying to spoonfeed you the details...

You are thinking of the regular waveby prior to pits opening, that preserves class battles. There are 2 sets of wavebys that IMSA does during every yellow: "pass around" prior to opening the pits which preserves class battles and "LDWB" after regular sequence of pits. Read Article 47.2.2 for the "pass around" details. 47.2.5.B for the "LDWB".

You are missing a point when you reading this phrase:
This will always happen for a car a lap down that doesn't pit, while all cars in its class on the lead lap pit. And the main gripe we all have this this??? Cars that take advantage of the LDWB are then ALLOWED TO PIT UNDER FCY after they complete their wave by.

This.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by mimi1969

They did increase the fuel capacity and increase refueling rate for the P2 prior to Sebring.

This is the opposite of what I suggested. This further increases the weight of the P2. My suggestion was to leave the P2 at its original spec and decrease the DP back down to the P2 spec. As I pointed out, most of the world of prototype racing is reducing the amount of fuel available with a goal to force innovation in going farther and faster on less fuel. Increasing the fuel load and refueling rates go counter to this and eliminates the efficiency goals.

[wdave0]

Funny nobody commented on some other features of the race like the position numbers. They will be pretty good when they work right but are clearly a work in progress. It was interesting to see cars in lambda and L positions and then the count seemed to switch back and forth from class to overall, and at one point seemed to be the car number of the car ahead (nifty if we knew it was on purpose). As it was the big screen at the hairpin was a lifesaver. Also, for me, my polarized shades messed with the blue, I wonder about blue blockers? Fortunately, because of the SC, for most of the race it didn't mean much anyway.

Another factor is sound. Given the issues now in F1 we are very lucky that IMSA has chosen a loud solution. The variety is terrific and how different even the two types of Porsche sound, the GTDs as good as any Porsche I can remember, then the Ferrari glorious scream, the V12 Aston, interestingly even the V6T Fords sound good. This was so missing from GA races and again, something road racing fans have a very positive response to, another of those differences between oval and road racing. Looks like they got this one right!!

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Why not reduce their fuel capacity and refueling speed to even things out a bit more? Let efficiency enter the equation.

Refueling speed would only be an issue if they went to no touching the car during refueling, then tire change etc., both safer and adding strategy elements - assuming there's ever any green flag running and pit stops.

[Rodger Davies]

GT Eins, thanks for that top speeds diagram a couple of pages back, really interesting.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

GT Eins, thanks for that top speeds diagram a couple of pages back, really interesting.

I'll second that. I have found your analysis quite enlightening.

[nkoske]

Time to get rid of Pruett I think. Marino is solidly quicker than both Memo and Pruett. But Memo brings the money, so... I think it's time for Pruett to retire.