ParityParityParityParity - Page 6

deeks6 · 15 Aug 2004, 08:46 (Ref:1066850)

Yes, take out the SBR cars and the result of Oran Park would be:

Race 1: Holden 1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9
Race 2: Holden 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Things are clearly OK in Red Land. Whenever the SBR cars have a bad day, it is a Holden whitewash. The only reason Bargs was up there in R1 was a good strategy and he held up a freight train of Commodores for about 10 laps. The average race times and finishing positions for each make are completely one-sided - worse, as I say, if you exclude SBR. And as races, or longer races wear on, the worse the Fords get (SBR again an exception).

tiko, as for your ridiculous assertion about Ford mistakes, Skaife has made more mistakes this year than a one-arm juggler, yet he is still 12th in the Title pts. There are just as many errors on both sides.

You have an argument for each situation. When HRT was dominating, it was "the team is just outstanding - why should they be penalised" to stop parity being exercised. NOW, and SBR are hardly dominating, because only ONE Ford team is remotely competitive, the argument is "if one team can do it, the others can". Nice to have it both ways!

As I said, things are back to normal and it will only get worse, Ford fans.

tiko · 15 Aug 2004, 08:54 (Ref:1066854)

Yes but deeks6 you are missing the point. The SBR cars were there. An SBR FORD won todays R2 and overall on the day. If one FORD can WIN then another Ford should be able to win. It cant be any more simpler. If you give the Fords a parity adjustment then you are giving a car that is already able to win races an extra advantage.

It is pretty clear after today that Fords can ran up the front, win races and rounds. The other Ford teams just have to step up to the plate. Ambrose and SBR have proved the car is and can be competitive.

deeks6 · 15 Aug 2004, 09:11 (Ref:1066865)

No, YOU are missing the point conveniently...two of the best 4 drivers out there produced a result by driving the wheels off cars prepared about as well as they can be by (probably) the best team of engineers out there (or lets say equal to HRT). Was'nt THIS you argument with HRT winning everything? How hypocritical!

The rest were nowhere - pure and simple - uncompetitive.

4 of the 5 fastest laps in R1 were Holden. In R2 SEVEN of the fastest 10 laps were Holdens, including the top 2. Ingall was lucky to have track position because there were 7 Holdens faster than him.

You either just don't get it or, more likely, don't want to. Less front downforce means chewing tyres, means degradation in performance and gets worse the longer you go. Proven by the times and positions.

But good luck to you - Holden WILL again dominate, you'll be happy, poke fun at Fords and say "try harder" or "get better drivers" blah blah blah ... just like normal.

End of transmission - I'll bring this thread up again next year when it is evn more obvious.

tiko · 15 Aug 2004, 09:19 (Ref:1066871)

You can keep talking yourselves into defeat. I'm sorry to break it to you but the Ford Falcon BA can win races and has proved to do so. If one team can do it then others can. You just blatently cannot excepts the facts, again. Let me tell you again; IF A FORD CAN WIN RACES, ROUNDS AND A CHAMPIONSHIP, THEN THERE IS NO NEED FOR A PARITY ADJUSTMENT. I can guarantee all drivers of both makes are driving their cars at 110% so dont kid yourself in believing that Ingall and Ambrose are the best thing since Senna, because their not.

THE FORD DOES NOT NEED A PARITY ADJUSTMENT. IT WON TODAY, IT HAS WON BEFORE, IT WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP LAST YEAR - GET OVER IT.

IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TODAY THAT OUT OF ALL FORD TEAMS SBR ARE DOING A BETTER JOB THAN ITS FORD RIVALS; NAMELY-LMS,DJR,BJR,888,WPS,FPR.

rustyinsthoz · 15 Aug 2004, 09:27 (Ref:1066875)

To say SBR are remotely competitive might be stretching the truth . I think the SBR cars , well Ambrose , are arguably the fastest cars in the field on a consistent basis . Just watching Ambrose today , he looked to be doing it reasonably easily .
As for a parity adjustment , I don't find any logic to it . If Ambrose already has the fastest car and is winning now , it will make the rest of the year just a walk in the park for him . Plus I don't like the idea of Holden teams being penalised because the other Ford teams cannot match SBR .

pete55 · 15 Aug 2004, 09:52 (Ref:1066886)

I haven't watched one race this year but anybody with half a brain can tell that the Ford is deficient; all but SBR that is. Now there must be a reason for it as not all the other Ford teams can't not prepare cars and not all Ford drivers can't drive.
Therefore the reason is either a deficiency in parity or there is an inherant problem with the Ford chassis. Also note that SBR and now 888 are the only Ford teams to build their own chassis and the rest are Beehag built. Is this where the problem lies?
Also i do think it is about time AVESCO bit the bullet and got the two cars wind tunnel tested to sort that issue out for once and all. This should be done now so that there is plenty of time to fix if necessary before the 2005 season starts.

Grimace · 15 Aug 2004, 09:54 (Ref:1066888)

Quote:

Originally posted by deeks6
Yes, take out the SBR cars and the result of Oran Park would be:

Race 1: Holden 1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9
Race 2: Holden 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Things are clearly OK in Red Land. Whenever the SBR cars have a bad day, it is a Holden whitewash. The only reason Bargs was up there in R1 was a good strategy and he held up a freight train of Commodores for about 10 laps. The average race times and finishing positions for each make are completely one-sided - worse, as I say, if you exclude SBR. And as races, or longer races wear on, the worse the Fords get (SBR again an exception).

tiko, as for your ridiculous assertion about Ford mistakes, Skaife has made more mistakes this year than a one-arm juggler, yet he is still 12th in the Title pts. There are just as many errors on both sides.

You have an argument for each situation. When HRT was dominating, it was "the team is just outstanding - why should they be penalised" to stop parity being exercised. NOW, and SBR are hardly dominating, because only ONE Ford team is remotely competitive, the argument is "if one team can do it, the others can". Nice to have it both ways!

As I said, things are back to normal and it will only get worse, Ford fans.

deek6 >>>you are RIGHT!!!-Those Commodore stats are 200% correct for both races...Falcon still need a very slight aero parity adjustment!
pete55 you are spot on a wind tunnel test is desperatly needed to sort this disparity out. The Avalon test was a joke!

Joe5619 · 15 Aug 2004, 11:26 (Ref:1066969)

Quote:

Originally posted by pete55
I haven't watched one race this year but anybody with half a brain can tell that the Ford is deficient; all but SBR that is. Now there must be a reason for it as not all the other Ford teams can't not prepare cars and not all Ford drivers can't drive.
Therefore the reason is either a deficiency in parity or there is an inherant problem with the Ford chassis. Also note that SBR and now 888 are the only Ford teams to build their own chassis and the rest are Beehag built. Is this where the problem lies?

If one team can do it, then the rest can!!! Not hard to understand that... I do believe the problem(s) is a deficiency in the Beehag shells.. However that is not a deficiency in the Ford product rather a deficiency in the teams who chooce to use Beehay shells!!!!

I repeat, if one can do, why can't the rest do it???? You say the other ford teams 'can't not prepare cars'... I believe that is where the problems lies. The harsh truth is they simiply can't!!!! If SBR can do it, that means the product can do it, so the other teams must learn how it can be done!!!

pigsy · 15 Aug 2004, 11:46 (Ref:1066982)

Parity it's a joke, there is none. Take a look at the results.
Race 1 3 Fords in the top 11
Race 2 2 Fords in the top 12

Ok TEGA run your little formula over todays results and tell Ford they haven't been dudded.
Oh that's right you did that for the last race and now there won't be any change until after Bathurst ..... I can see it now .... Holden win Bathurst for a record 7th consecutive time.

tiko · 15 Aug 2004, 21:19 (Ref:1067456)

None of you can understand it. You obviously support other Ford teams than SBR and you plain and simply cannot handle the one and only fact that is SBR are doing a better job than every other FORD team. If SBR can do it then other FORD teams can. Quit your whinging, support your team, dont look for excuses for losing before the races and be gracious in defeat.

Let me re-irritarate the FACTS:
AT OP: a FORD FALCON BA was 2nd and 3rd in race 1
a FORD FALCON BA won race 2 and won the round overall.

There is no more proof than the weekend that proves FORDS can do it, every single other FORD team arent doing a good enough job. Im sorry to break the truth to you all - but youll have to understand it one day.

Boss330 · 15 Aug 2004, 21:23 (Ref:1067459)

Quote:

Originally posted by tiko
Post Oran Park my point is strongly backed up. Nothing wrong with the speed of the Falcons today. A race win, a round win and tied for 3rd. Cant be that far off the commordores then. Hopefully this puts an end to the parity debate, well it will until Holden win again.

Also Bargwanna would have been looking good for a top 6 overall finished but he was spun around early. And if Bowe didnt miss the scales in qualifying he would have finsihed right up the front considering where he started in R1 and where he finished in R1.

And Boss330 seems your defeatest attitude has got the better of you this weekend. Correct me if i'm wrong but a Ford won today.

Fair enough, I'll cop that one on the chin
See how we go in the big races coming up!

deeks6 · 15 Aug 2004, 22:08 (Ref:1067516)

Quote:

Originally posted by pete55
I haven't watched one race this year but anybody with half a brain can tell that the Ford is deficient; all but SBR that is.

How are you going to fuse 4 Holden fans together?

vipernz · 15 Aug 2004, 23:41 (Ref:1067608)

Quote:

Originally posted by pete55
I haven't watched one race this year but anybody with half a brain can tell that the Ford is deficient; all but SBR that is. Now there must be a reason for it as not all the other Ford teams can't not prepare cars and not all Ford drivers can't drive.

So what do you suggest will happen when SBR gets a parity adjustment on there Falcons pete?

It will be worse than the days when HRT won most races because going by the currant form of SBR, any parity adjustment for them will simply ruin any competition as they will probably win every race. That to me is by no means interesting or exciting to watch.

It wouldn't seem fair to help all teams but SBR either, being penalised for performing has never been something I have been fond of so maybe a suggestion would be to get someone in there to figure out why SBR can deliver the goods and the others can't.

Luke Plaizier · 16 Aug 2004, 01:19 (Ref:1067678)

And therein lies the single most relevant argumnt in the parity debate - it would give SBR too much of an advantage.

But given that the most recent parity test was quite close, the Oran Park result makes it seem more likely that the next time it is checked a parity adjustment will be due.....

Lukeyson

deeks6 · 16 Aug 2004, 03:20 (Ref:1067718)

SBR might say "If it aint broke, why fix it?" - perhaps a parity adjustment will not "help" them at all because they have got the current setup OK and would have to re-develop. But I maintain that, as the races get longer now, they will struggle too.
Call me a fatalist but I can see Holden whitewashes in the enduros just the same as last year, and the year before and ... well, every year, really.

Wheels · 16 Aug 2004, 13:53 (Ref:1068152)

When the GMH teams get their excretement into a nice pile and run a single model with a choice of ONE engine type, then we might be able to talk parity.

retro · 17 Aug 2004, 04:41 (Ref:1068862)

I noticed at a NASCAR race a few weeks back the Ford Mo Co had a big trailer full of engineers and lap tops etc specifly for any FORD team to use for advice etc

- I wonder how this would fly at v8 supercars.

Conrod Kieron · 17 Aug 2004, 06:49 (Ref:1068901)

With the current parity formula, whos winning doesn't mean anything, its based on multiple team car performances from both sides of the fence, at multiple races and I think tracks.

If Ambrose is doing all the winning, the other Ford teams are languishing in the lower top ten at best and a parity review says they need parity help then thats it, they get it.
Black and white rules I believe. But I suspect if the above scenario happend, a certain oil sponsored red team would get his grey pencils out

Techo · 17 Aug 2004, 07:16 (Ref:1068913)

Best racing since the V8's started.- no problems

The teams/drivers that deserve to win are - and always will.
Tyres, geometry, 5lt engines, 4 wheels, controlled ECU, seperate monitor of electrics, cameras, and avesco -winners!

do'nt worry be happy or work harder.

deeks6 · 17 Aug 2004, 08:03 (Ref:1068950)

Quote:

Originally posted by Techo
do'nt worry be happy or work harder.

So I gather that Dynamik and Tasman and Morris have much more money and work harder than DJR, BJ, 888 and FPR?

Puh-lease

Techo · 17 Aug 2004, 08:13 (Ref:1068963)

Yep ( dj's -fpr )- working pretty well as a team, some how it does'nt always seem to be the best funded teams that are doing well.

The Budget side of things is their job too, so go get it.
If your've got the budget and are'nt winning what does that tell you -- TEAMWORK- STAFF !!!!!smarter is also harder...

deeks6 · 17 Aug 2004, 08:56 (Ref:1069010)

yes, I see what you mean ... from Oran park, it appears that Dale Brede in a Dynamik Commodore is a good a package as Russell Ingall in an SBR Ford coz their fastest lap was about the same (Wills was 7/10 quicker). And, all of a sudden this year, Anthony Tratt is competitve (reasonably) ... come on

The Minardi's and Jordans are killing them in F1 too

Oh, hang on - this is EARTH.

tiko · 17 Aug 2004, 09:21 (Ref:1069036)

deeks6 I thin kyoull find one of the major reasons Anthony Tratt is slightly more competitive this year is that he has a half decent set up car, and the car actually finishes races and practice sessions. Just about every weekend in his BA last year somethign mechanically would fail on the car, whether it be during practice, qualifying or a race scenario.

With reference to F1, where there are several different makes/teams it clearly backs up my point, Ferrari are doing a better job than every other team. Similar to SBR and to a lesser extent PWR, SBR are doing a better job than every team in v8supercar, hence why they are the reigning champions.

I cant see why YOU cant understand that and that if one Ford can be up the front so can another.

You cant really compare one fastest lap to another when comparing cars. However the Dynamik cars are no slouch, with Oscar Fioronotto engineering them they are quite speedy. I do remember when Oscar was running Lowndes in a Gibson/00 AU, he too was quite quick and was unlucky not to win more races and the championship - ie, fencing it at the elbow at bathurst 01 whilst in very strong contention for the lead/win. Thats a perfect example of how different engineers can get different cars to go at different speed.

If you cant see that different teams do better jobs etc. then there is something that you should address because its quite clear to me, and to others also.

deeks6 · 17 Aug 2004, 10:06 (Ref:1069068)

Quote:

Originally posted by tiko
deeks6 I thin kyoull find one of the major reasons Anthony Tratt is slightly more competitive this year is that he has a half decent set up car, and the car actually finishes races and practice sessions. Just about every weekend in his BA last year somethign mechanically would fail on the car, whether it be during practice, qualifying or a race scenario.

Yes, it's totally impalusible that the car he is driving would be EASIER to set up and drive quick than the one he got out of. Strange that....
With all due respect to Tratty, if an "ordinary" driver can go a second or more faster by changing makes, thats a warning siren.
However, when "good" drivers like Lowndes and, more recently, Bargwanna are struggling, then the alarm bells are ringing.
Just because the Stone Bros are outstanding shouldnt even affect the argument...again, THAT was your argument against "penalising" HRT for their 5 year dominance.

No, if you look at things through the red goggles, everyhting is about to get good again. Bright will win the ATCC, Holden will win Bathurst and the Ford teams are just "not good enough". Lowndes just can't cut it any more.

moffman · 17 Aug 2004, 10:26 (Ref:1069087)

Quote:

Originally posted by deeks6
How are you going to fuse 4 Holden fans together?

I seem to remember numerous parity adjustments for the red side when the blue side were on top of their game,they always came along just before Bathurst.......funny that.