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18 Nov 2010, 14:56 (Ref:2792663) | #126 | |
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Well if Toyota opt to come back no doubt Fuji will return. The ILMC should consult with manufacturers on where they want to race but that does not mean it should crumble to their whims. It has to have established marquee races to be credible.
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18 Nov 2010, 15:00 (Ref:2792666) | #127 | ||
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Entire team is babies. |
18 Nov 2010, 15:25 (Ref:2792674) | #128 | ||
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Aren't we missing something here, there was always going to be a race in China, the question is where the other end of season fly-away event will be. Autosport reported last week PLM will be confirmed in early December once the China date is sorted.
Ulrich pointed out the ACO and manufactuers work together to cover each of their marketing needs. Quote:
Last edited by JAG; 18 Nov 2010 at 15:41. |
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18 Nov 2010, 15:52 (Ref:2792688) | #129 | |||
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These guys are seriously out to lunch. |
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18 Nov 2010, 17:55 (Ref:2792747) | #130 | |
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Manufactuers are expected to build cars that rival F1 in terms of technology and expense, if the entire season rests upon success at Le Mans anyone who isn't on the top step of the podium will have difficulty justifying the program to board members.
Peugeots season could have ended in embarrassment in June, instead they have an ILMC trophy to show for their efforts and exposure in the NA and Chinese markets. It's still a far cry from Sauber Mercedes skipping Le Mans to focus on their World Championship campaign in 1990 but sportscar racing needs to race in important and emerging markets otherwise manufactuers will switch to a series that does. |
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18 Nov 2010, 18:01 (Ref:2792752) | #131 | |||
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It's easy to spot with Peugeot's almost non-excisting interest in US racing, as they have no spot in the market to enhance. Where as Audi does, and therefor has (had) interest in racing there. |
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18 Nov 2010, 22:12 (Ref:2792868) | #132 | |||
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Wonderful short-term thinking, pandering to singular manufacturers. Forget building the LM brand, or strengthening existing series. LMS will be dead shortly, Henri admits as much. ALMS will be seriously affected.
Then we end up with a single World Championship, that will be campaigned by about 15-20 cars. Brilliant. Screw (can I say that?) the pandering to the manufacturers. If a World Series is needed, then you do so that it meets the needs of the series, and promotes the long term growth of the series. You require the manufacturers to participate in one or the other of the series, and you keep the World Championship short and sweet. Two in Europe, Two in North America and Two elsewhere... ok, do the pandering in the elsewhere. It simply amazes me that the business of the sport is so thoroughly ignored by some routinely and repetetively. How many of the current LMS entries can afford to enter the full ILMC? Sure, I suppose they'll be allowed to race in the Euro ILMC races... the three or four, or whatever it ends up in the future. But are three races, plus LM enough to bother spending these kids of budgets on, or would it be better to just go race in FIA GT, or GT3, or the Brit series? The interest in ILMC from the ALMS teams approaches a number close to zero, so you really could likely count most of them out. http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...tscars-1118/P2 Quote:
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18 Nov 2010, 22:49 (Ref:2792886) | #133 | ||
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Reading the Plassart stuff... maybe I'm wrong but that doesn't sound very kindly... and also looks like they are using every trick to undermine the ALMS position...
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18 Nov 2010, 23:15 (Ref:2792895) | #134 | ||
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I don't see what position it is in to be undermined? Sebring should be one of the greatest collections of cars in years. Petit is all still up in the air. Granted the test day is a slap in the face. Big manufacturer teams by in large aren't interested in a season-long campaign in the US. But they want a broader reach than the LMS. Go do the ILMC. It is a work in progress and I hope the foundations this year and next will be attractive to new teams. |
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19 Nov 2010, 00:49 (Ref:2792923) | #135 | |
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Who runs in ALMS that does ILMC? How many teams? Not many at all right now, so why would it change? What Panoz is saying just seems to confirm that. Weve got ALMS, and many don't want to race ILMC because it might conflict with the races over here (U.S.). I'm all for international racing, but I doubt it'll affect the ALMS, it's not like they rely on Peugeot and Audi anyway! In reality, it to me seems like GTE is where it's at in ALMS, the only team in Prototype categories that is really considered anything close to factory backed is the Honda team. And that's a stretch! ALMS has two events on it's calendar that attracts the 'big' guys. I don't see anything happening to ALMS since it's currently doing what it's doing without them anyway.
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19 Nov 2010, 00:51 (Ref:2792924) | #136 | |
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The World Sportscar Championship ran for 40 odd years in parallel with a thriving NA sportscar scene and series like Can-Am and IMSA GTP.
Slowly but surely prototype racing has developed in Europe but after 2008 it was clear the LMS wasn't meeting manufactuers needs. Audi had the chance to return to the ALMS but chose not to, Peugeot have limited interests in NA so only Sebring and PLM are of interest. For European competitors a core of European races and a handful of fly-away events isn't a huge deal, it happens in the WRC, WTCC and now FIA GT. It's increasingly obvious manufactuers and sponsors want to reach out to emerging markets. Much of the above doesn't apply to ALMS competitors because, well, they don't need to travel outside NA. It's a huge market for all concerned and should be equivalent in size and stature to the ILMC, afterall this is a region that single handedly supports billion dollar sports like NASCAR, the NFL and NBA. If the ACO had not addressed manufactuers needs we could be sat here bemaoning Audi, Peugeot and Aston Martin pulling out of the sport altogether. Last edited by JAG; 19 Nov 2010 at 01:15. |
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19 Nov 2010, 02:07 (Ref:2792938) | #137 | |||
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No big manufacturers in Prototypes in the ALMS = eventual death of ALMS. This was a planned approach, to poach the manufacturers and their dollars to an ACO run series instead of ALMS. If the ALMS dies, do PLM and Sebring become ILMC stand alone events, or does Grand Am take them over? I suppose this is a North America vs. Europe thing. The manufacturers never really had interest in an LMS, and now you've got them, and can call this a World Championship. This is likely the death of our series, so we aren't too happy about it. |
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19 Nov 2010, 02:09 (Ref:2792941) | #138 | |||
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If there were no ILMC, would Audi have chosen to run in ALMS? Would new manufacturers choose to run in ILMC or ALMS? If there was no ILMC, they would choose ALMS.... Yes, the ALMS did rely on Audi in the past. Yes, they NEED the manufacturer entries and budgets to survive long-term. |
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19 Nov 2010, 02:14 (Ref:2792942) | #139 | |||||
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Quote:
Quote:
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You do realize that ACO maintains marketing and TV rights for ALL ILMC events right? |
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19 Nov 2010, 07:47 (Ref:2792989) | #140 | ||
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But it was the manufacturers that were pushing the ACO for the world series. If this had not happened they would have been more likely to move their money into other categories than ALMS as they wanted to get to markets such as China with a high profile series.
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19 Nov 2010, 13:30 (Ref:2793104) | #141 | |||
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Of course it was the manufacturers pushing, and it was the ACO pandering and looking for the dollars. When you pander looking for short-term gain, it almost always costs you in the end. The ACO is looking after their own interest, their own revenue, and mostly looking out to protect the 24. As a North American, it is plain to see that the ACO doesn't have the interest of ALMS, is in competition with them, and we would be better off charting our own course, including throwing the ILMC races off the continent. |
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19 Nov 2010, 16:19 (Ref:2793148) | #142 | ||
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To be honest I wouldn't be suprised if that happens with the ALMS becoming something else and the LMS and AsLMS fading away. Right now the calander for the ILMC looks like a glorified LMS series.
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19 Nov 2010, 16:31 (Ref:2793155) | #143 | ||
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Looks like it was a major mistake for ALMS to stop their international expansion in the early 2000s.... their schedule from 2000 looks pretty much like a reverse ILMC.
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19 Nov 2010, 17:19 (Ref:2793164) | #144 | |
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The entire sport is built around the 24hrs, Audi would be long gone if Peugeot hadn't arrived on the scene.
There is now a global platform that will attract and retain manufactuers for season long, multi-year campaigns. The likes of Toyota turning up with the GT-ONE for one race per year before pulling out isn't good for the sport. Despite this the North American market is too big and too important to ignore, the GT2 field proves this so there is no reason not to expect manufactuers to support P1 once new cars come on stream and the economy picks up. In addition the much maligned LMPC and GTC field is developing, LMPC teams in particular have made a clear investment in the ALMS and you would think have plans beyond this spec class. In short I don't see the ILMC or a few years in the doldrums for the ALMS as the begining of the end. |
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19 Nov 2010, 18:22 (Ref:2793180) | #145 | |||
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19 Nov 2010, 18:44 (Ref:2793187) | #146 | |
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I get the frustration about the ALMS. I just don't see how the ILMC is a "rival" per se. I don't see any evidence thus far to show it is stealing entries away. In contrast it brings potentially HUGE entry lists so Sebring, and I'm still not convinced the PLM link-up is dead. That gives a much needed injection of interest to the ALMS.
Who exactly are these teams who are going to choose the ILMC over a campaign beating themselves in the ALMS? I just don't see it quite frankly. The ALMS should be happy as it looks like retaining its premier squads for next year. I'd say the ILMC is the least of it's problems. |
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19 Nov 2010, 22:51 (Ref:2793276) | #147 | ||
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Exactly. It's the manufacturers who pushed for the ILMC. The ACO agreed to accept their request to go to Asia. Audi didn't want to run a North American works prototype programme, therefore they didn't run one. There's nothing IMSA could have done to prevent it. Now they have 30+ cars, so their goal must be to keep them and get more. If they can attract major European and Asian teams to one to three special races, even better.
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20 Nov 2010, 16:07 (Ref:2793476) | #148 | |||
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When Porsche, Acura and Audi left (nothing to do with ILMC), a large part of the income went away. I keep saying, stop thinking short-term. ILMC, as Plessart states, was created for the manufacturers, to attract manufacturers and their money. It is an additional choice. A manufacturer looks at going LM racing, they can choose between ILMC and ALMS... therefore ILMC and ALMS are in competition for those entries, and their sponsor dollars. It is easy to speculate that Audi would not have raced in NA this year, but it is nothing but speculation. We don't know if they would have, or wouldn't have if there was no ILMC. What we do know, is that Audi NA didn't think there was value in paying for a full ALMS campaign, when they could just piggy back off of Audi AG, who are likely paying for Audi to show up at the biggest (two?) race(s) in North America. Who exactly would be these future teams/manufacturers? This forum seems to talk alot about Toyota. Would they choose to run in ILMC or ALMS... isn't that competition? People should realize that the ALMS is a business. At some point, a lack of revenue causes businesses to fail, fold, or be sold off. Without factory entry in the ALMS premier class, sponsor revenue drops, attendance drops, sanction fees drop. I appreciate that the woes of the ALMS are not all caused by ILMC, but the ACO very much knew they were creating competition, at a difficult time for the ALMS. So what if Sebring and PLM have huge entry lists? Fan attendance cannot increase much at either event, maybe marginally, and the rest of the races suffer because of it. Fewer people want to watch races with a bunch of privateer gentleman run entries and spec cars in the first few classes. So, think beyond what you think you have seen so far. Yes, they are rivals, as both want and need the sponsors money. The sponsors have choices, that is competition. ILMC isn't their only problem, that much I agree, but it is a major problem going forward. If people cannot understand they are in competition, or that the ALMS needs that manufacturer revenue, there isn't much purpose in me trying to explain it further. The main point, why create something that makes entering the ALMS less attractive for manufacturers? Understand that the ALMS is a business. Mal - I appreciate your point. The ACO putting themselves in direct competition weakens the ACO ILMC races in North America, long term. It reduces the sustainability of the ACO based series globally. It also destabalizes all of ACO type competition. |
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20 Nov 2010, 17:58 (Ref:2793515) | #149 | ||
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Most manufactuers fall into the category of Peugeot and Corvette, Peugeot aren't going to race full-time in NA, Corvette wouldn't race in Europe. In the case of Toyota a project which originates from Cologne is likely destined for the ILMC, if TRD were involved the ALMS would be the focus. The ideal scenario is an ALMS focused program supplies cars to ILMC teams and vice versa. |
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25 Nov 2010, 12:52 (Ref:2795618) | #150 | ||
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I'm still trying to get my head round ALMS and ILMC being in the same category?
ALMS and LMS were the Merkin and Euro series. ILMC has put a cherry on BOTH cakes, AFAICS? And is PARALLEL to BOTH. It doesn't replace, or compete with, either series? I have no idea why PLM has dropped off, as it most certainly should be on the ILMC schedule. As said elsewhere above, there have always been series with more cars than others. Hell, for 4 years Audi didn't race in LMS, just ALMS, and did we ***** about it? |
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