2007 FIA European Touring Car Cup - Adria, 28 Oct 07

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by E46

GR Asia drivers line-up wasn´t so weak. Great effort for this team with SEAT cars. Michel Nykjaer has been fantastic at wheel, and now he seems to travel to Macau for the last WTCC round.

I think Nykjaer had a big advantage by driving for GR Asia, who have experience with driving the Yokohama tyres.

[Valker]

All RTCC drivers had the same advantage.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Ellmau

I think Nykjaer had a big advantage by driving for GR Asia, who have experience with driving the Yokohama tyres.

On the other hand he didn't have the advantage that Ceresoli/Lundgaard/Mörth/Poulsen had of driving for the team they usually drive for.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

On the other hand he didn't have the advantage that Ceresoli/Lundgaard/Mörth/Poulsen had of driving for the team they usually drive for.

Question is, which advantage is bigger?

[Bezzen]

Just watched the races now (I had to get by with only the live timing earlier on today). There was some nice racing going on and I must say that Lvov ran surprisingly well in race 2.

It's still a bit disappointing though that except for Nykjaer the best drivers or teams weren't represented. I mean, for example, Engström who was second was only 12th in STCC this year and Kristan Poulsen who ended up third was 18th in the DTC.

[JMeissner]

Yeah, the ETC organization needs to do something about that. Like starting some kind of cooperation with the top series, having a deal like that the top X will take part in the ETC Cup.

[Bramzel]

The series is such a good idea, it just needs more support and cooperation from the national series. This should end up being like the Masters of F3, where the best drivers from all countries battle it out for the prestegious cup. Not a obscure race with midfielders from even more obscure places :P

[touringlegend]

Yep I agree, the concept is good but we need more topline national drivers from across Europe competing.

(Although, 3 of the Top 5 BTCC drivers don't have an FIA homologated car!)

[Hazard]

I think the race set-up is flawed. Two races with a reversed top 8 works as part of a championship - but is a little biased towards the 8th place man in race one - as the chances of the pole man / race winner getting caught up in an accident are high, whereas Mr P8's got the advantage of pole etc. in race two.

Thinking back to those wonderful Bathurst events in the late nineties, that's how this should work (in terms of attendance) - S2000 cars aren't really built for endurance - maybe the event should be set-up in the BTCC style 3 race format (no one seems to dislike that!) - perhaps with seperate qualifying for the races.

Or - a whacky option...

Maybe the race should be staged by the WTCC teams anyway, but just the drives are handed out via invite to the top runners in the WTCC - and maybe that should be split out as the 'champions class' - since none of them bother coming anyway.

Critisize all you want, I'm just brainstorming.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Yep I agree, the concept is good but we need more topline national drivers from across Europe competing.

(Although, 3 of the Top 5 BTCC drivers don't have an FIA homologated car!)

You mean the Dynamics Civic, Vauxhall and WSR BMW? These cars have national homologation, which is allowed in ETCC. See for example the Geipel Toyota's.


I think the BTCC 3-race format is better suited for a single event championship like ETCC.

Maybe ETCC organisers should try to attract more sponsors and invite (read: pay) top 3 drivers of the major S2000 series (BTCC, STCC, DTC, RTCC) and champion and vice-champion of smaller S2000 series. Or just increase prize money. What are the running costs (single car) for a event like ETCC?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

(Although, 3 of the Top 5 BTCC drivers don't have an FIA homologated car!)

Was going to say that the gearbox in Turkington's isn't FIA homologated so that's actually 4 of the top 5 out, however the Toyota Corolla, Mercedes C200, Audi A4 and Opel Astra aren't either and they were accepted.

Would be nice to see the likes of Jackson, Turkington and Adam Jones but can't help feeling it's a catch-22 situation. Until there are some bigger names to beat, the bigger names aren't going to justify the expense of going.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by FIRE

What are the running costs (single car) for a event like ETCC?

Way more then the € 25,000 the winner gets, thats for sure! Especially if you get any kind of damage, Engström and Mörth will have a fair bit of doors and other body panels to replace after race 2, and those arent cheap, so they for sure didnt gain anything.

I dont think we will see any more top drives until the race is either held in the UK or Sweden, or the price money is atleast doubled.

Maybe Meissner can answer on how much is would cost to take a 2 car team like Flash Engineering all the way down to Italy and back with all the transporters and personel and everything?

Altho, I think theres a much bigger reason why they arent going, what if they wreck a car? With a repair bill of 300 000€? The whole STCC/BTCC season would be in danger then, its not like in the ST days whith all factory cars that they just got a new from the factory for free, now all teams are more of less privateers, paying their own bills, times has changed drasticly since the 90s, its only in WTCC that the 3 works teams doesnt have to think about all this, all others have to.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Altho, I think theres a much bigger reason why they arent going, what if they wreck a car? With a repair bill of 300 000€? The whole STCC/BTCC season would be in danger then, its not like in the ST days whith all factory cars that they just got a new from the factory for free, now all teams are more of less privateers, paying their own bills, times has changed drasticly since the 90s, its only in WTCC that the 3 works teams doesnt have to think about all this, all others have to.

Isn't there an insurance for race cars as well?

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Isn't there an insurance for race cars as well?

You can insure anything - for the right price.

As you can imagine,the premium on a £100k car being raced at high speed on a race track with 30 other cars ready to smash it to bits trying to pass it will put you in insurance group 1,323,437.

[JMeissner]

Well, for what I have heard, if you manage to get two cars on the podium or there about it would be round about break even going to the race and back from Sweden with personel, trailers, etc.

[redshoes]

I don't think the danger of wrecking a car is that much of an issue. You could do that at the first championship round. If you feel it's that much of a risk then would you bother racing anywhere. That's not to say it's not in the back of some people's mind, it's just not the primary concern.

This event is held after the BTCC/STCC has ended there's no danger to a championship challenge. WSR were happy to enter a car in the UK WTCC round before the BTCC championship had been decided, surely that was more of a risk.

For some of the sponsors there will be the question of value for money. The event doesn't get a lot of media coverage and if you are going to spend money on advertising (sponsorship) then it needs to be somewhere it will be seen by your target audience.

[werner]

The solution to that is to try to make arangements with the TV-stations onwich the national championships are broadcasted. I think for instance Vauxhall doesn't care that x people can watch them trying to win the ETCC-cup, but if the audience that usually watches BTCC can watch ITV, Italy is as good as anywhere for them. The same goes for Volvo and Audi in Sweden probably. But Eurosport is in the way here I'm afraid.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by redshoes

This event is held after the BTCC/STCC has ended there's no danger to a championship challenge.

Its 6 months to next season, and most cars will be used again exept for the teams that are bulding brand new ones, so a setback of 300 000€ will have a huge effect for next year.

[redshoes]

So no winter testing either then in case you have an accident there.

If you take that attitude you'll never take the car out of the garage.

[JMeissner]

No, but when sponsors without any real interest in being shown outside the country the financial risc becomes greater I would suspect for many teams.

[Marco Leo]

I was at work and I could not see the two races dell'Etcc cup to Adria ...
Someone knows how to see them in streaming or have the video?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by redshoes

So no winter testing either then in case you have an accident there.

If you take that attitude you'll never take the car out of the garage.

C'mon dude, you know what I mean, dont try to be an ass.


Ofcourse its more likely to have a wreck in a race then under wintertesting... Wintertesting serves a purpose while ETC Cup aparently doenst for most teams. You're better off spending the money on a week of testing at home instead of going to Italy and be well prepared for next season in BTCC/STCC/whatever that is the main goal.

[redshoes]

I know what you mean. The point I was making, as I've already said, is that unless it's a week before the final championship round and you're in with a chance of lifting a title, the risk of damage comes some way down the list of reasons not to go.

Unless you've included that race when doing your pre-season budget calculations it means going cap-in-hand to a sponsor. First and most important thing for them will be the cost vs promotional return.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I know what you mean. The point I was making, as I've already said, is that unless it's a week before the final championship round and you're in with a chance of lifting a title, the risk of damage comes some way down the list of reasons not to go.

Unless you've included that race when doing your pre-season budget calculations it means going cap-in-hand to a sponsor. First and most important thing for them will be the cost vs promotional return.

How would you know?

WTCC race at Anderstorp sure couldnt have cost too much to do for the Swedish teams, yet we only had one Polestar Volvo for Dahlgren, whys that? Volvo pays their bills, why not take both cars while they are still at it? Could it have something to do with that they only had 2 cars and one driver was in for a a shot at the STCC title, the other didnt, so they brought only 1 car so they could have the other as a backup for STCC should things go wrong?
For the other teams in STCC I can see why they didnt go to Anderstorp based on your reason that they didnt know they where going to race there when making their pre-season budget, but they all sure knew about ETC Cup. Based on that, now when they all know WTCC will be heldd on Anderstorp for the coming 2 years I sure hope they will all place that race in the budget!

[redshoes]

As I said, the risk argument for a mid-season event like WTCC Anderstorp is different to that for an end-of-season event like the ETCC.

If that's the main concern, once the STCC title was decided and with new cars being built for 2008 anyhow why didn't Polestar run both cars at Adria?

Just because you know there's a race taking place doesn't mean you have the budget for it. The ETCC is, in theory, aimed at the leading drivers in each national series, but how can you know at the start of the season if you will be a leading driver.