Irish Formula Libre 2008

[eugeneheary]

Originally Posted by libre racer

You are entitled to your opinion ,however misguided.
Racing cars are exspensive ,not just the "big ones".
Your damaged wing wasn't caused lapping a Formula Vee.You damaged it by hitting the back of a "smaller car" that you finished behind at the last race.
Holden engines are rated at 370BHP. Formula Vee's are about 70BHP.
Spectators want to see racing not just "big cars".
There was only one race last season when 12 "big cars" where there but that depends on how you decide what is a big car.Is it the lap time the car is capable of or the actual lap time it does or maybe the size of the car or the noise it makes?
Some of the the slower cars that you selfishly don't want, have supported Libre every day last year not just 2 days like some of the "Bigger cars"

Ok Libre racer!You seem to be making this very personal but thats a bit childish so just to explain that I never said i damaged my wing by hitting a Formula Vee!!My point was how can you put a Vee and an F3000 in the same race?It has over 5 times more power!Do you not think its dangerous?Its like racing an F3 against an F1 and i dont think anybody wants to see two very differently matched cars pass each other or possibly crash into one another while trying to get by on the tight Mondello national track!.I also cant see how a Vee driver can have much fun with a field of maybe 3 or 4 formula vees in a field of bigger cars trying not to be killed or driven over while getting blue flags waved at them by the marchalls.Most people have jobs on monday mornings!
My point about the expense is that accidents will happen if you have cars that have too big differance in power and its not only to do with driving standards.The cars are so much faster that its just an accident waiting to happen.
Your point about me only turning up for two races is accepted but taken as a personal attack rather then about the real point i was trying to make.If you want to make it personal at least show your real name on the forum.....or else maybe come up with a solution so everyone has enjoyable safe racing.

[eugeneheary]

Originally Posted by Graz

Lads, Stephen Green is spot on, let's stick to the point and let everyone have their opinion, whether agreed with or not.

From my own viewpoint, I am a spectator going to Mondello since 1982. In recent years I had stopped going because I got bored of the pletora of low powered one make racing that existed co-inciding with the demise of FFord and FOpel also.

I started going back to Mondello purely because of the big single seaters in the Libre class. Co-inciding with this has been the influx of GT3's into the Porsche class which also makes this an appealing series. As a spectator, what's the common link? The fast, high powered cars.

I can understand all viewpoints. For example, why should the small car drivers feel they are being cast aside after years of loyal support?

Peter Dunne makes an important point in was this decision arrived at without consulting with the drivers.

My own opinion, purely as a spectator is that I would prefer to see the quickist cars twice in the day. I know Libre means anything goes but I think this should be within reason. I'd prefer to see a limit on what Libre does actually mean based on lap speeds so that the slower cars can't enter Libre and should say, use their Vee to enter the Formula Vee class. Perhaps the rule should be that if you have a car eligible for another series, this is where you should be? It should be about quality and not quantity - there would still be large grids, not only comprised of the big cars.

For me, only seeing the fast cars once each meeting would make me less likely to want to go down to Mondello. A class such as this could be a real catalyst in attracting spectators back down to Mondello but contracting it like this would have the oposite effect. By diluting the series in this way could also set it back. Guys may not find the series as appealing if they are getting less race time so won't bother investing in an expensive big single seater.

Many highly spectacular series down through the years in Mondello have been consigned to history (e.g. the Cosworths that raced prod saloon in the late 80's - why oh why did they turn this into a 2 litre normally aspirated class only - killed it stone dead).

Just my opinion so don't go nuts at me guys. If I was a racer of a smaller car I would probably feel different.

I think you have a very valid point and dont see why if you did own a formula vee would you be annoyed if you could not race in the libre class when there is an existing irish formula vee championship that you can enter?
Would it help the class if everyone decided on a time that all cars must be capable of doing before being allowed to enter?(58 seconds?)

[av8rirl]

The spirit of libre seems to be pretty much all encompassing of all drivers and cars and is a very worthwhile class. Just a few points to note:
1. When other classes were over subscribed over the last 2 years (ie Formula Vee) the organisers tried to put these cars onto the back of the libre grid. Some drivers accepted this and others refused (quite rightly IMO) on safety grounds.
2. Some drivers share a car (I know of two brothers with one Sheane Rover). One drives in their class, the other in libre. As libre is currently open to all, how fair is it to tell one driver they cannot drive because they share a car?
3. Take the Formula 5 cars which cannot be considered "high powered" or "big cars". They can normally expect to be lapped during a race BUT they regularly finish ahead of much more expensive machinery. They normally lap around mid 58s. Should they be banished? They currently don't have somewhere else to race!
4. Looking at mylaps for the races which are online for 2007, I have listed how many cars qualified with sub 58s laps:
8 Apr - 8 cars
22 Apr - 1 car (wet from memory)
12 May - 12 cars
13 May - 10 cars
I'm sure no one wants to see a race with 8 - 12 cars? I'm even more sure that Mondello and the libre organisers don't want to see races with this number?
5. There are several cars capable of lapping much faster than they currently do (and these include the high powered big cars) but then its down to driver ability. Do you stop these drivers?

I'm not offering any solutions, merely mentioning the fact that "libre" means "open" and to date the class has been a success. I agree that people where possible should try to enter a race with their own class but this does not suit everyone! There would be a lot of people having to drop out of circuit racing if the class gets tinkered with without very careful thought!

Perhaps down the road and if the class really expands, there could be merit in having a sub 2L class and a plus 2L class. That time is just not right now!

[Thundersports]

I really do think your series needs 2 classes to have serparate races as mentioned ie above 1.950cc and below 1950cc. My opinion for what its worth having attended big single seater and sportscar races over 25 years in various roles, is that speed differencial in a staight line is more dangerous than overall lap time. Roger Cowman wouldn't let a F Renault or even a modern F3 car near a Euroboss grid let alone a Fvee!!!

[libre racer]

[quote=eugeneheary]Ok Libre racer!You seem to be making this very personal .

My reply was not meant to be personnel.I won't be revealing my name but i can tell you i race a big car like you.I don't have a problem with slower cars in the race.Before i decided to buy a libre car i looked at the class i was entering.I accepted that lapping slower cars would be part of the deal.When i am out in the race i know these cars will be there ,so when i approach them i have to adjust my driving the same as if there was a car broke down or going slowly for whatever reason.If everybody obeyed the flags there wouldn't be a problem.

[libre racer]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

I really do think your series needs 2 classes to have serparate races as mentioned ie above 1.950cc and below 1950cc. My opinion for what its worth having attended big single seater and sportscar races over 25 years in various roles, is that speed differencial in a staight line is more dangerous than overall lap time. Roger Cowman wouldn't let a F Renault or even a modern F3 car near a Euroboss grid let alone a Fvee!!!

You are correct we do need 2 races but the problem is we don't have the cars.We have 2 classes in the same race and this year i believe it will be 3 . Euroboss like us are struggling to fill grids while British GT is strong while LeMans is over subscribed.

[stealth1]

Whoever it is you might as well come out and say you don't want slow cars as they are only in the way!

Don’t know where you got that impression from. Certainly not from anything Formula Libre Ireland has ever said. Our criterion is and will continue to be “A class for any type of single seater or open topped sports car”. EVERY entry is welcomed, is just as important to us, and is treated just the same as any other. You can see on the NEWS page of the website and in Autosport this week that we have introduced a 1 litre class this year so as to broaden the appeal of the class. Why would we have done that if we felt that slower cars were only in the way??

Please don't try to fix it when it’s not broken.

I agree. Nothing is broken in the sense you mean, but in another sense, and the problem we have is that, as things stand, there is serious potential for things to get broken. The changes made are a pro-active effort to address matters BEFORE something happens.

Whose idea was this anyway? As a driver, I don't seem to recall being asked my opinion.

This issue was spoken about, to the floor, at the awards presentation last November.

Perhaps the rule should be that if you have a car eligible for another series, this is where you should be?

Not necessarily, there’s no reason why any car that fits our criterion shouldn’t enter, and race in a safer environment under the new format

But surely the over-riding factor must be that it is unsafe to run the races given the above scenario, and the organizers must take this into account.

Precisely

If anyone of the rule makers is out there, what is the acceptable lap time to be considered worthy of entering a Libre race?

There isn’t one. What this is all about is reducing the current difference of 12 seconds + in lap times between fastest and slowest cars, to around half that. It’s most definitely NOT about getting rid of anyone, or making them feel unwelcome, as I’ve said above already.

Would it help the class if everyone decided on a time that all cars must be capable of doing before being allowed to enter?(58 seconds?)

For qualifying we would probably use that time as the division between the 2 sessions.

speed differential in a straight line is more dangerous than overall lap time. Roger Cowman wouldn't let a F Renault or even a modern F3 car near a Euroboss grid let alone a Fvee!!!

Interesting … Yes, possibly in the case where the difference is in excess of 30 mph or so?? Would you think Roger’s reluctance is purely on speed differential or more to do with the image of EUROBOSS?

[Jennifer_ni]

I was given the offer of racing with the libre last year at the leinter trophy, as the vee grid was full. I was one of the people who decided not to take the offer, this was because i doubted my own ability to not do something stupid in front of one of the faster cars as i only had 3 race finishes at that stage not the fact that i think the general set up is dangerous. Having then tested with the libre for the October meeting, i have to say it wasn’t a nice experience having cars flying past you but that again was down to me and my lack of confidence, not the other drivers. Personally i think it is ok to let the slower cars race in the libre but only drivers who have a certain amount of experience. I also marshal regularly and from that perspective i don’t see a problem when the faster cars are lapping the slower ones, in my opinion the slower cars are very alert and respond very quickly to the blue flags.

[EvilPumpkin]

There's a lot of very interesting points being raised here.

Since I'm not a racer, I can only offer my own perspective but hopefully you can address my queries.

1. Why are the lap times such a big deal? Historics seem to manage ok as do the Kirkistown sportscars - and have done for years with little or no problems. What's different about the Libres?
   
   Personally I would have thought that inability to get around a back marker - or alternatively being a back marker who is in the way and preventing a faster car from passing - is an issue of driving standards. If you can't handle the car, you shouldn't be out there, surely?
   
   
2. If it's really such a big issue, then what about split grids? I know the bigger cars can't handle long waits on the grid, but global lights and strykers do ok with a split grid on a rolling start - is that an option?
   
   
3. Although the "big cars" are nice, they're not really the most reliable beasts in the world. I have seen an awful lot of Libre races where the only cars to finish (and in some cases to even start) are the smaller ones. If you limit your field to the "big cars" for a race, it's likely to be a very short race and unsatisfactory to both the drivers and the spectators (and to those of us who have to clean up the oil slicks! )

Maybe I'm missing the point?

[stealth1]

I was given the offer of racing with the libre last year at the leinter trophy, as the vee grid was full. I was one of the people who decided not to take the offer, this was because i doubted my own ability to not do something stupid in front of one of the faster cars as i only had 3 race finishes at that stage not the fact that i think the general set up is dangerous.

See what you think of the new format, and maybe try us out this year. You’d be very welcome!

Personally i think it is ok to let the slower cars race in the libre but only drivers who have a certain amount of experience

Can’t force that to happen. Once a person, even with no experience, fulfills the criteria for obtaining a race license, they are then free to race any car up to 2 liters.

I ask generally, if such a person wanted to race Libre, would it not be wiser to do so under the new format?

What's different about the Libres?

Big difference in speeds between Historics and Libres, and much greater potential for a biggie after contact between open wheel cars. Kirkistown have also been concerned about the Sports cars, and I understand there are measures to address issues there as well for this season

Personally I would have thought that inability to get around a back marker …

It’s interesting to watch lapping drivers’ reactions if they can’t get the job done first go, especially if it’s no fault of the slower driver

… Or alternatively being a back marker who is in the way and preventing a faster car from passing …

Intent is the key here. CoC’s should come down heavily on drivers choosing to “mix it” while being lapped

… is an issue of driving standards

Which are liable to go straight out the window when a driver, for whatever reason, gets a rush of **** to the brain.

Lapping requires all concerned to be prudent, especially when there’s a big difference in performance between the cars

If you can't handle the car, you shouldn't be out there, surely?

Everyone competing needs the chance to learn and improve both themselves and their cars, and if a relatively safer environment can be provided to do so, then all the better, I would have thought?

global lights and strykers do ok with a split grid

Difference in lap times between these cars is around what we’re trying to achieve in Libre

Although the "big cars" are nice, they're not really the most reliable beasts in the world

Improving all the time, though!

If you limit your field to the "big cars" for a race

Not the intention at all. Don’t see any reason why there won’t be a feature race with cars from all 3 classes taking part.

Strong urge to have a bet with you about the amount of oil slicks you’ll have to clear up this year … after Libre anyway!!

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by stealth1

Strong urge to have a bet with you about the amount of oil slicks you’ll have to clear up this year … after Libre anyway!!

Just add it to the class regulations that anyone that retires with an oil leak has to get back on the track at the end of the race and help push the brooms!!!!

[Graz]

I'm still bummed about the quick noisy (trying not to use the word "big") cars only appearing once each meeting. Reduces somewhat the overall spectacle and appeal of going to Mondello I feel.

Why not amalgamate the Globals and F5's together instead of having a seperate 1 litre class? Both have motorbike engines in common and both would benefit from trying to forge their own identitiy. The Globals don't have their own race enough in Mondello as is. They're cracking little cars and I would like to see more of them in their own race and championship.

I still think having such as Vees in Libre is strange considering they have their own class. I know Libre is free etc. etc. but I thought part of that was to accomodate different cars with nowhere else to race as such. The specatacle of Libre is being diluted to accomodate lesser cars. Just my opinion from someone on the outside looking in. I'm sure there's much more to it than my simple ramblings!

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by Graz

I'm still bummed about the quick noisy (trying not to use the word "big") cars only appearing once each meeting.

From what I hear, there will be quite a few 2litre cars out this year. If as Ed says there are to be 12 "over 2litre" cars then you will probably find that the first race will be made up of nearly all the 2litre's which could very well be an entertaining race in its own right. Most of them are noisier than the F3000's so that should satisfy the desire for a race containing cars with a bit of bark.
Race two will then see the top 2litres mixing it with the "big guns" and, if last years results are anything to go by, giving them a good run for their money. Sounds to me like it will be pretty good from a spectator point of view.

[driftwood]

Biggest worry with running quick 2 litres and over with Fford f vee cars is teh speed differentails
the guy in the Fford /Vee is driving his balls off as his car willdo only X speed and he has tocarry the speed everywhere to get his lap time
the quciker cars can brake accelerate fast and easily drive around smaller cars
the quick car drivers need to give the slower cars room for these "slower" cars to slide run wide on corners taking their respective lines
the bigest prblem is the "slower" lower powered cars drivers cannot appreciate the fact the faster cars are travelling so fast and can catch them so easily and especially at chicanes/ hairpins the slower car cannot comprehend ( unless he has driven a faster car) how late the faster car can brake maybe overtake him and then shoot away out of teh next corner

To me the 2 dangers are for these slower cars getting either wacked under braking as the quick car wants past/ not to be held up and the slower guy is driving flat chat trying to mind his own business
ot at top speed on the main straight the slower car ahead pulls across teh track perhaps to give faster car the road to pass but its all misjudged due to closing speed
My view is Libre is afree for all race BUt common sense needs to prevail
its catch 22
1 Libre would not get going without the plethora of slower/lower powered cars ie Fford/Vee making up perhaps 50% of the grid with "faster" larger engined cars such as FVL Frenault F3 /hybrids and F300 cars with V6 tractor engines fitted
2 when the grids start to get better and speeds increase there is some natural regression of the slower cars joining the libre grids due to speed differentials especially if the FFord/vee guys actually have their own race

You guys dont want to be seen to be surpressing the lower powered/speed cars from joing the libre race as sadly 1 day you or the race organisers will need them on the grid again to make up numbers but if you can look at giving a 2nd " Junior" libre race or perhaps you all have a handicap race im sure fun can be had for all

Im not up on other formula grids in "Paddy" racing but if there are races with similar speed power cars of a similar desin style/nature then common sens should prevail and mixed grids should be implemented
better to have 1 race of 23 cars than 2 races of 10 and 13 cars
IF the Irish race organisers do amalgamate these formulaes they could do a grid on lap times but do a split grid so each category gets to grid up with its own kind and not get to mixed up spread out across a grid and they can still have their own championship status

When is Paddy power coming to Anglesy?
i want to save up my fuel allowance to come and give you bunch of pussies a dusting - that includes you Peter !!

[SAMD]

Well personally I think it was good for you to get that off your chest, it has obviously been fermenting for a while.
Just be careful on your way to bed and watch your step. LOL

[driftwood]

i live in a bungalow!

[stealth1]

i want to save up my fuel allowance to come and give you bunch of pussies a dusting - that includes you Peter !!

Oooohhhh ... fighting talk .... just remember winners are expected to stand the first round afterwards! ... defaulters will be dealt with by MagnetOn and he's a mean mother with a broom!

Here's all our 2008 dates

FORMULA LIBRE IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP RACE DATES 2008

APRIL 06 MONDELLO NATIONAL TRACK

APRIL 26 KIRKISTOWN

MAY 17/18 MONDELLO INTERNATIONAL TRACK. 40TH ANNIVERSARY

JUNE 7/8 MONDELLO NATIONAL TRACK

JULY 5/6 ANGLESEY

JULY 20 MONDELLO NATIONAL TRACK

AUG 9/10 PHOENIX PARK

AUG 30 KIRKISTOWN

SEPT 13/14 MONDELLO INTERNATIONAL TRACK. LEINSTER TROPHY




NOTE

PHOENIX PARK NON CHAMPIONSHIP

KIRKISTOWN DATES PROVISIONAL

PM me through the contact page on the website for the ferry deal

[driftwood]

1 am i expected to stand up after a round ?
2 what does he do with the broom?
3 thanks for dates im compiling my race programme for the year so her in doors can approve it !

[Thundersports]

Libre guys mr driftwood is a fairly handy ex-euroboss racer sometimes talks sense as he has done with the speed differentials (similar to my post). May have to make a trip to Anglesey myself to see what Irish Libre is all about.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by SAMD

But surely the over-riding factor must be that it is unsafe to run the races given the above scenario, and the organisers must take this into account.

I stand corrected.
The organisers have taken the above into account and after spouting off I had a look at their website. It seems to me that the way races/grids are to be sorted this year is as good as it could be done. I think they have a pretty good handle on things.
Well done Irish Formula Libre.

[stealth1]

Originally Posted by driftwood

1 am i expected to stand up after a round ?
2 what does he do with the broom?
3 thanks for dates im compiling my race programme for the year so her in doors can approve it !

Absolutely .. cos then it'll be your turn again, altough dont mind really, as long as you leave money at the bar, then you wont need to experience what MagnetOn does with his broom! Ah, domestic bliss, the cornerstone of a peacefull racing season ... at home anyway!

May have to make a trip to Anglesey myself to see what Irish Libre is all about.

Be sure to come 'n say hello if you do get there

It seems to me that the way races/grids are to be sorted this year is as good as it could be done. I think they have a pretty good handle on things.

Cheers SAMD!

[driftwood]

Thundersports speaks with fork tongue !!!
does the mondello bar take credit cards?
when you come to anglesy are you bringing over a keg or 2 of guinness?
If i do beat you lot will you perform riverdance for me !!

as for deomestic bliss- if i get m race dates up on the wall alongside the calender before she books sunday BBQ`s ive bagged the date!

[Thundersports]

Any chance of a lift to Anglesey driftwood? May even muck in with a spanner or just supply beer.

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i want to save up my fuel allowance to come and give you bunch of pussies a dusting - that includes you Peter !!

Fuel allowance? I didnt know that fuel vouchers from the war were still accepted!! I look forward to your Ken Dodd impression complete with feather duster....

[driftwood]

Over here diesel is now £1.12 per litre cheaper to pour a Bottle of Paddy`s whiskey into the tank and it may go further too !

Big teeth hair and duster are packed are teh paddies ready to do Riverdance?

Thundersports
Im sure a lift can be organised
1 are you any good with spanners
2 how many beers where you intending to bring?