HANS Devices - Discussion from Andy Neate thread.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dtype38

PS Having spent over £600 on my original hans device, buying a new one just to get the slip-stop system is not even close to being an option.

Same here. Not buying a new one just for the slip-stop. I really dont have a problem with mine.

[Victor Meldrew]

Started reading this thread then got bored around half way through as the nonsense and ill-thought through arguments being put forward from so many people just amazed me.

I simply don't believe where this anti-HANS lobby has come from. The arguments against are beyond comprehension........

It makes it difficult to get in / out the car with a seat with ears. Go lose some weight fatty. It's too expensive. And your neck is cheap eh? You wanna end up in a wheelchair? And is there anyone amongst us who wouldn't flinch from paying £500 on the car to make it go a tenth of a second a lap quicker? Why should I pay £500 for something which cost £50? JFDI.

For those still reading this, I just finished reading a book which was originally published in 1962, Stirling Moss, All But My Life. A fascinating read and I would thoroughly recommend it. If only for the passage where Stirling (in 1962 AFTER his Goodwood crash) is still espousing the theory that he would be much happier without seat belts.

Well, the arguments now being put forward against HANS will be seen like Stirling's in years to come - arcane, misinformed and out of date.

Come on, wake up, grow up and simply see a little common sense.

I for one would welcome HANS devices being made mandatory across all forms of motorsport just like crash helmets are mandatory. If there are then those who choose not to wear them, they are very welcome to make their choice and to take up an alternative sport.

Your choice.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Victer Meldrew

......
I for one would welcome HANS devices being made mandatory across all forms of motorsport just like crash helmets are mandatory. If there are then those who choose not to wear them, they are very welcome to make their choice and to take up an alternative sport.

Your choice.

How about a compromise; make it compulsory for you but leave us with the choice. Me not wearing one does not affect your safety.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by Victer Meldrew

Started reading this thread then got bored around half way through as the nonsense and ill-thought through arguments being put forward from so many people just amazed me.

I simply don't believe where this anti-HANS lobby has come from. The arguments against are beyond comprehension........

It makes it difficult to get in / out the car with a seat with ears. Go lose some weight fatty. It's too expensive. And your neck is cheap eh? You wanna end up in a wheelchair? And is there anyone amongst us who wouldn't flinch from paying £500 on the car to make it go a tenth of a second a lap quicker? Why should I pay £500 for something which cost £50? JFDI.

For those still reading this, I just finished reading a book which was originally published in 1962, Stirling Moss, All But My Life. A fascinating read and I would thoroughly recommend it. If only for the passage where Stirling (in 1962 AFTER his Goodwood crash) is still espousing the theory that he would be much happier without seat belts.

Well, the arguments now being put forward against HANS will be seen like Stirling's in years to come - arcane, misinformed and out of date.

Come on, wake up, grow up and simply see a little common sense.

I for one would welcome HANS devices being made mandatory across all forms of motorsport just like crash helmets are mandatory. If there are then those who choose not to wear them, they are very welcome to make their choice and to take up an alternative sport.

Your choice.

I agree, I cannot understand the growing number of people who rubbish off the HANS device. I believe the campaign on here is led by SS Collins, who refuses to say a good word about it, infact I have read some comments implying it could make things worse in a crash!

You get one shot at life, I personally believe that whilst they are expensive, you dont know when you can have a crash, better to be safe or minimise the risks than to be sorry! Imagine if helmets were optional, I guess some would wear goggles and a cap like in the 50's!

[JamesH]

Who's rubbishing it?

It's a discussion - some people want to know about them. I for one want to know know why they are so expensive - just that - I'm sure they increase safety - just as I am sure they they won't help in all circumstances (and possible could hinder in some edge use cases, just like air bags) - but on average, an increase in safety. That is overpriced. In my opinion. So it is my choice whether to get one or not. When they hit £200 I might go for it, but given the current cost, the cost of a new helmet with posts, and new belts...hmm...when I struggle to get the car out anyway?



And to Victor Meldrew - your post was an insult ("Try losing some weight fatty" - well, you can **** off with that one - and I am not even fat!). I suggest you read the whole thread before spouting off. Can I remind you that we don't yet have the years of experience in using these devices required to put them in the same category as seat belts as you have done with your SM reference. (And I am still not saying they are a bad thing - I am sure they are a good thing ). I wouldn't pay £500 for 1/10th sec either. JFDI? Q. Why *should* I pay £500 for something that costs £50?


Actually, the airbags are a good point. They would possibily increase safety as much as a hans device - and yet they are not compulsory....why not champion them?

And another thing - I won't be paying £30 for a Autosport show ticket
either - now that IS a rip off.

/rant

[Chris Y]

No dodging of the autocensor please. This is an emotive subject, but stay within the rules.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Two or three times I've had a shoulder strap slip off the device. It's not uncomfortable, but it is very disconcerting, not to mention quite tricky to get back in postion without coming into the pits.

How would this affect the seatbelt efficiency in the event of an impact? Surely the belt would be both loose on that side and not sitting properly. If this is possible in dtype's case I imagine there are others having the same problem. As I see there is no retro fit for the slip stop, does that make dtype's set up unsafe? I'm just curious as in litigation world injuries resulting from the belt slipping could open a can of worms....

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

No dodging of the autocensor please. This is an emotive subject, but stay within the rules.

"Loose some weight fatty"

May not kick off the autocensor, but offensive! And completely unnecessary.

Russell Brand would be proud!!

[AU N EGL]

I have worn a HANS since March of 2005. I will continue to ware one anytime ON TRACK.

If someone chooses to NOT ware a HANS, that is their choice. too a point.

The FIA is mandating HANS type devices. Any orginization affilitated with the FIA must comply. If not, dont know what will happen

Here in the States, if some racers chooses to NOT use a HANS, they dont get to RACE. They are regulated to track days some place.

[RF_Racer]

I wonder if MR MSAR would like to give discount to people here on the carbon version, I do agree with the costs, they are still too expensive!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

I wonder if MR MSAR would like to give discount to people here on the carbon version, I do agree with the costs, they are still too expensive!

I assume with a name like Jen, Mr MSAR is a Mrs, Miss or Ms. That aside as she is running a business she may not be able to or want to give a discount on anything. There is also the problem that some manufacturers wont allow their goods to be discounted which may well be the case with the HANS devices as I have never seen them cheaper than MRP anywhere.

[JamesH]

If people will pay the prices, then why discount?

If people are forced to use the product, why reduce the price - you have a captive market (is that against EU regulations btw?).

I am a believer in getting the price down to sell more, and therefor make more money - almost everyone commenting here would buy one if they were more sensibly priced.

Look at DVD players - cost to develop probably the same order of magnitude as a HANS device, cost to manufacture about the same for CF, more than injection moulding. Cost to the user £50 for a really good one. Yes, they sell a lot more of them, but BECAUSE they sell a lot more of them, the price is lower, and the company make more profit. You can buy 10 DVD players for the price of one HANS (or keep 500 people in the third world out of poverty for a day just to put it in perspective)

5 years ago, no-one used HANS devices. What has changed? Not much. Most cars are about the same speed, often safer, and the tracks are also safer. So keep HANS optional at the discretion of the driver - it's an ADDITIONAL safety measure which helps in some accident scenarios. Unlike a crash helmet, which helps in almost all accident scenarios. Also, keeping it optional will eventually force the prices down, increasing uptake.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Podd37

How would this affect the seatbelt efficiency in the event of an impact? Surely the belt would be both loose on that side and not sitting properly. If this is possible in dtype's case I imagine there are others having the same problem.

You're right that on the occasions my shoulder strap has slipped off it probably has a big effect on the safety of the harness. The strap then sits on my shoulder rather than over my collar bone which is not good at all. Also it can't possibly be only a problem for me, or why would they have introduced the slip-stop system?

Anyway, once it has slipped off I guess my choices are: 1, pull immediately off the track to stop and sort it out, 2, wait till I get round to the pits then pull in and sort it out, 3, sort it out while I'm driving.

Well....... I admit that so far I've done the latter. All right, yes, yes, don't all shout at once, I know that's a bit dangerous! I'm being honest though, because realisitically how many of you would want to throw away your hard won position when a bit of fishing round with your belts can get it sorted? If I can manage to fit a new fuel pump fuse on the Revett Straight, I'm sure I can get my harness back in position!

Originally Posted by Podd37

As I see there is no retro fit for the slip stop, does that make dtype's set up unsafe? I'm just curious as in litigation world injuries resulting from the belt slipping could open a can of worms....

I don't see it as "unsafe" because while the straps are in position it obviously works as intended, and if they should slip off I could simply stop and adjust it. With experience and feedback though, the manufacturer has obviously recognised there is a problem and has offered more advice about installation and developed upgrades on the product to be more tolerant of poor installation. Such is always the case in developing new safety products. Would that we could all have the latest version, but its the real world and an old version is still better than no version (imho).

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by JamesH

If people will pay the prices, then why discount?..........etc

I completely sympathise with your position James. Talk about running a racing car on a shoe-string, you Locost boys don't even have the shoe-string! For me it was a personal choice and I am fortunate enough to be able to make the choice, and it still took serious thought before I decided to buy my HANS. I agree the price is a big issue and needs to be addressed before it is every made compulsory, not after.

I also would comment though: For all the noise that is made in support of using HANS devices, to the best of my knowledge last year I remained the only driver to be using one in either of the race series I take part in!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JamesH

So keep HANS optional at the discretion of the driver - it's an ADDITIONAL safety measure which helps in some accident scenarios. Unlike a crash helmet, which helps in almost all accident scenarios.

Looking at it from a marshalling perspective, I'd say just the opposite. Probably the most common injury incident is where a car collides with something solid, such as a tyre wall. In these incidents HANS plays a vital role in preventing neck injury, whereas a helmet would have little or no effect - in fact, it could be argued that a helmet on its own could exacerbate the injury.

Just a personal, subjective, observation.

[AU N EGL]

Safety items are THE MOST EXPENSIVE modifications to your race car and person that you pray and HOPE YOU NEVER USE.


ie if you cant afford the Safety Requirements of racing, may be it is time to hang up it up.

[Stuart H]

I've got a hans device from a friend of mine. just waiting for the postman to bring it. If he ever does!!

[Victor Meldrew]

I totally agree with the argument that they are too expensive and a rip off. Could be that if they were say £150 - £200 this thread would not exist. But if that is accepted then my earlier argument stands. It therefore means that there are those people (and I DO respect their opinions) who are arguing their necks over £400 - or the cost of a weekends racing.

I for one can't reconcile that.


Obesity is associated with many illnesses and is directly related to increased mortality and lower life expectancy. Tackling obesity is a government wide priority..

[Al Weyman]

Good for you JamesH and who is Victer Medrew anyhow (wearing a bit thin that one isn't it), do tell us please unless of course as I suspect you post on here in your real name as well.

[Eddy V]

dtype, what you can try as well, after you have adjusted your seating position like in the drawing, is use a shoulder pad (yes, the old fashioned one). That may just do the trick to keep the belt in the proper spot.
And you can cross the belts behind the seat, that will "pull" them inwards.

Tim: the angle of Hans is like this:
10°: rally purposes, mainly co drivers
20°: saloons, rallydrivers, GT
30°: smaller single seaters
40°: big single seaters

In your case a 20° is okay, but I always tell people to try one first (borrow one from a friend) before buying a (far too) expensive piece of kit.
Same goes with helmets and suits.

[tristancliffe]

I'm not sure the cost is the whole problem - people moan when asked to spend £60 on a rain light - also a safety item. This thread would still be here even if HANS only cost £50 and was made compulsory. "Why do I have to spend more money on something - that's the cost of a second hand set of tyres you know" etcetera etcetera.

But I agree with the statement "the price is a big issue and needs to be addressed before it is every made compulsory, not after." Then we can have the argument about it being compulsory and come up with rude retorts about people's stinginess when they refuse to cough up

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I'm not sure the cost is the whole problem - people moan when asked to spend £60 on a rain light - also a safety item. This thread would still be here even if HANS only cost £50 and was made compulsory. "Why do I have to spend more money on something - that's the cost of a second hand set of tyres you know" etcetera etcetera.

But I agree with the statement "the price is a big issue and needs to be addressed before it is every made compulsory, not after." Then we can have the argument about it being compulsory and come up with rude retorts about people's stinginess when they refuse to cough up

I don't think its the cost per se - it's the perceived (and probable) excessive cost. Nobody likes to be ripped off. For example, a rain light. 20 LEDS costing pence each, on a PCB, in a resin backing, with a couple of leads. Total cost to manufacture, about £1. I could make one at home for £5 at consumer prices that would be almost exactly the same as those for sale for your quoted £60. No E mark though. But is that worth £59? That's why people argue the toss on rain lights, and also HANS.

[JamesH]

Looking on the bright side, I am in sunny Sunnyvale CA early in the new year, so may be able to pick up a HANS at $ rather then UK£ price. Still, given crap exchange rate, still not cheap.

[tristancliffe]

But, of course, once you had the thing tested to conform to various standards (be they in house standards, EU electrical safety standards, FIA standards or whatever it might be), paid someone to make it, someone to do quality control, someone to design it, someone to package it, someone to transport it, made a little bit of profit and allowed the reseller to make a little bit of profit you VERY quickly get to bigger numbers.

I very much doubt anyone is making more than £5 profit per rain light.

HANS is slightly different, in so much that it's a fairly niche product with very high research/design/manufacturing costs, but I doubt that anyone is making a killing (pun intended, even if it's not funny) on each one.

Does Mr Average Joe in the street (or the paddock) have any comprehension of what it takes to design, manufacture and retail a product to a relatively small market? I suspect not.

If I (the company I work for) was to design, manufacture and sell a 20 LED rain light to MSA standards (or FIA standards) I think it would sell for around £100.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

But, of course, once you had the thing tested to conform to various standards (be they in house standards, EU electrical safety standards, FIA standards or whatever it might be), paid someone to make it, someone to do quality control, someone to design it, someone to package it, someone to transport it, made a little bit of profit and allowed the reseller to make a little bit of profit you VERY quickly get to bigger numbers.

I very much doubt anyone is making more than £5 profit per rain light.

There is a lot more than £5 profit in a rain light. Design and test is trivial, quality control nowadays is greatly reduced (I know), manufacture, even in the UK would be low, and China very low indeed. Transport costs in bulk pretty low. Only big number is E mark or FIA homologation.

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

HANS is slightly different, in so much that it's a fairly niche product with very high research/design/manufacturing costs, but I doubt that anyone is making a killing (pun intended, even if it's not funny) on each one.

Agreed. Niche product. Not sure I agree about high research costs, and I would expect they were paid for long ago (Probably by the FIA or NASCAR), with only minor changes from the original design. Manufacture - Can't seeing it costing> £50 to make. Probably at first, but they should gave got the hang of it by now, and really got the costs price down. New injection moulded version needs quite a chunk of up front cost for the mould, so in a way, that shoud cost more than the current CF version!

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Does Mr Average Joe in the street (or the paddock) have any comprehension of what it takes to design, manufacture and retail a product to a relatively small market? I suspect not.

If I (the company I work for) was to design, manufacture and sell a 20 LED rain light to MSA standards (or FIA standards) I think it would sell for around £100.

You need to sort out your manufacturing then!