[BTCC] Vauxhall confirms BTCC withdrawal at end of season

[werner]

Alex Zanardi on the subject, he said that BMW are proud to go out with a car that is very similar to the road version (remember the re-styling of the Wtcc cars according to the new look of the 3 series), while Leons, Lacettis and Accords were pretty different from the ones we see everyday in the streets of our hometowns.
That is the spirit of touringcarracing ofcourse. I have the impression that the Leon's are also quite similar to their roadcar-equivalents, although probably a few percents less than the BMW's.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by werner

Alex Zanardi on the subject, he said that BMW are proud to go out with a car that is very similar to the road version (remember the re-styling of the Wtcc cars according to the new look of the 3 series), while Leons, Lacettis and Accords were pretty different from the ones we see everyday in the streets of our hometowns.

Alex of course conveniently neglects to mention that he is driving a Homologation Special.

[werner]

I indeed remember being a bit dissapointed at the start of the 2007 season that BMW had made a roadcar as a base for the WTCC wÃ*th an expensive carbon roof, but without a 6-pot engine. Well, the BMW's (exept for, uderstandable but ironically, Zanardi) at least have a normal gearbox.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Alex of course conveniently neglects to mention that he is driving a Homologation Special.

He said that last year

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

If I were Mario Theissen, I would definitely consider that. They have not delivered much in terms of performance compared to the other teams. I'm sure offcourse that they would be very welcome as a customer team.
OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if ROAL is only a sort of semi-factory team, with less support than Schnitzer. I suspect RBM to be partly self-funding as well.

I think the BMW-motorsportdepartment is very capable of builing S-2000's, GT2's and GT 4's at the same time. And if not, they have several connections that are capable of helping with the development and building of those racecars.

I was talking to a friend who has been very close to ROAL in the past and still has some contacts with them, and he said that it's mainly about the way they spend money. Anyway, that is absolutely correct. Schnitzer is the actual BMW Motorsport team in the Wtcc, while ROAL and especially RBM get less money. I asked Bart Mampey a question that could have sounded silly:'Why do you run a one car team?' and the answer was 'Because I only have the budget for one car'. Assuming that he doesn't have gold motorhomes like Elvis' cadillac, why would 2 works teams have the budget to run 2 cars and another one the budget for just 1?
I suspect it is because of the nature of the collaboration between BMW and RBM. Schnitzer for BMW Team Germany and Ravaglia and Grano for ROAL all came from within the environment of BMW. RBM was an independent team, Bart's father had won some Spa 24h before with BMW but nothing more than that. They became works when Andy did his first season as an Independent and came 3rd, fighting for the championship and constantly on pace with the Schnitzer lads, Dirk and Jorg.
Schnitzer, Ravaglia, Grano and all those people have been with BMW for more years and probably BMW would love them to win, too. That could be a reason why this happens.
I absolutely agree with the last part of your post

[awrb]

Not sure if I'm correct, but is RBM fundeed by BMW UK, and ROAL by BMW Italy and BMW Spain. So the money isn't all coming from exactly the same place, and so each nation only funds one car.

[werner]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

He said that last year

Well, he drove a homologation special last year to. The 320si is just made in enough numbers to qualifie for being converted in an S2000-car. Otherwise BMW had to use the normal 320i, as they did before the latest model. With the 6-cilinder engine, and without the carbon roof.

[Speed-King]

I wonder what the Vauxhall withdrawal form BTCC and the possible withdrawal of Chevy and BMW hinted at by Gio would mean for S2000 as a whole.

Lately, the vast majority of the race winning cars across all S2000 series were developed by manufacturer teams and fully privateer built cars usually have a very hard time just to get somewhat competitive as recently evidenced by the Arena Focuses. (The Hondas being -maybe due to a good basecar - an exception)

Is S2000 in its current state viable as a privateer-formula without the factories developing any new cars or would a withdrawal of most - if not all - factories lead to a similar situation as in GT1 over in sportscars, i.e. people racing old cars until they fall apart? I.e. would anyone bother to develop a new car if the same results could be reached with a three year old bimmer for less money?
And can it be in the interest of any series to have a field of out of production cars running around?

Or is it - if it comes to the worst case scenario, the end of WTCC, time to think about a new more privateer-friendly ruleset?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

Well, he drove a homologation special last year to. The 320si is just made in enough numbers to qualifie for being converted in an S2000-car. Otherwise BMW had to use the normal 320i, as they did before the latest model. With the 6-cilinder engine, and without the carbon roof.

So is the FR. Anyway if you buy a 320i and put a rear wing on it, it looks like the Wtcc car. If you buy a Leon or a Lacetti it's not the same thing. Evry manufacturer does that, the TC history is full of cars homologated on purpose for racing. Alfa were the masters of it.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I wonder what the Vauxhall withdrawal form BTCC and the possible withdrawal of Chevy and BMW hinted at by Gio would mean for S2000 as a whole.

Lately, the vast majority of the race winning cars across all S2000 series were developed by manufacturer teams and fully privateer built cars usually have a very hard time just to get somewhat competitive as recently evidenced by the Arena Focuses. (The Hondas being -maybe due to a good basecar - an exception)

Is S2000 in its current state viable as a privateer-formula without the factories developing any new cars or would a withdrawal of most - if not all - factories lead to a similar situation as in GT1 over in sportscars, i.e. people racing old cars until they fall apart? I.e. would anyone bother to develop a new car if the same results could be reached with a three year old bimmer for less money?
And can it be in the interest of any series to have a field of out of production cars running around?

Or is it - if it comes to the worst case scenario, the end of WTCC, time to think about a new more privateer-friendly ruleset?

I don't think it's about how hard the s2000s are to develop, it's the amount of testing that you need. Arena have obviously taken the wrong route in terms of engine developement.
Anyway yes, s2000s are at risk if most of the manufacturers will pull out. But before they pull out of a major championship I'm sure the organizers will try to work something out to make them stay at least as semi works teams, or something like that. TC racing will hardly die. If not, rules should be changed like we said earlier in this topic.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by awrb

Not sure if I'm correct, but is RBM fundeed by BMW UK, and ROAL by BMW Italy and BMW Spain. So the money isn't all coming from exactly the same place, and so each nation only funds one car.

Actually BMW Motorsport gives funds to each team. Those funds are completed by the national firms. Anyway, Schnitzer are funded directly and completely by Munich, which is also why they can have their extra-european driver, which is Farfus. That team surely gets all the money from the main German firm.
From the infos I have, the national firms pay for the drivers and for a part of the testing budget, which is why Hernandez found a place at Italy-Spain as a paying driver.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

the TC history is full of cars homologated on purpose for racing.

Yes, we all know that. That is why it was so funny when Alex said he drove a "normal" car while the rest of the grid doesnt.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Yes, we all know that. That is why it was so funny when Alex said he drove a "normal" car while the rest of the grid doesnt.

No, he never said it was normal, he said that the 320 looks more like the road car than the Leòn and the Lacetti. Simple as that.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

No, he never said it was normal, he said that the 320 looks more like the road car than the Leòn and the Lacetti. Simple as that.

If that interpretation makes you happier... go for it.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

If that interpretation makes you happier... go for it.

If you think you know better than I did what he told me, give it your own interpretation and go for it. We talked for half an hour and in our own language, so I reckon I understood very clearly what he said.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

If you think you know better than I did what he told me, give it your own interpretation and go for it. We talked for half an hour and in our own language, so I reckon I understood very clearly what he said.

Not my fault if you were misrepresenting what he actually said in your first post. Just decide on a story and try stick to it.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Talking with Alex Zanardi on the subject, he said that BMW are proud to go out with a car that is very similar to the road version (remember the re-styling of the Wtcc cars according to the new look of the 3 series), while Leons, Lacettis and Accords were pretty different from the ones we see everyday in the streets of our hometowns.

How does it differ from what I stated above? Read more carefully next time

[Speed-King]

When nothing else works:



Two posters go in, one poster goes out, and the forum is saved from your constant bickering...

Seriously, give it a rest, guys!!!


*Just for the record: I want no one to get killed, but this sucks!

[touringlegend]

You're right Speed King. Give it a rest helterskelter and stedevil please.

You are both rapidly turning each and every thread in this forum into a borathon. There is making your point which no one has a problem with, but if you both want to bicker about stuff I suggest you swap email addresses and continue it that way.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

How does it differ from what I stated above? Read more carefully next time

The words "similar" and "looks like" are not equal in meaning. You have now clarified you meant to say looks like, so why not give it a rest?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

The words "similar" and "looks like" are not equal in meaning. You have now clarified you meant to say looks like, so why not give it a rest?

I also talk about the restyling later, so I thought it was pretty clear. Let's give it a rest, I'm fed up of it, too.

[redshoes]

At the risk of dragging this back on topic, there's an interesting quote in today's Autosport from Stuart Parker, boss of Carrera Cup team Parker Racing, talking about the possibility of the team moving to BTCC next year - "The BTCC seems like a great platform for a team like ours at the moment. With no works teams looking like they'll be in I think it will level the playing field slightly too"

Goes back to what I was saying many pages ago, namely that people are being put off because they think they can't compete against big budget works teams. In the long run the BTCC may actually be in better shape without Vauxhall.

[crmalcolm]

SO, as Vauxhall have confirmed their withdrawal from the BTCC, joining SEAT from 2008 and every previous manufacturer, the future of BTCC looks to be a different place to the manufacturer led challenges of previous years. Will BMW consider an entry - highly unlikely IMHO. There may be a few others who will join, and the departure of Vauxhall paves the way for another GM brand. Unfortunately the entire GM setup is struggling and the european arms appear to be sold.
Could this be a possible route for Vauxhall back into the BTCC though?

The negative outlook is that GM are struggling, the industry is reluctant to invest and there will be no manufacturer involvement in BTCC for the foreseeable future.

The positive outlook is that Vauxhall's departure will see another GM brand in BTCC, and that the sale of Vauxhall to, say, FIAT will result in the Vauxhall Griffin proudly being displayed as a manufacturer entry also.

Where does the truth lie? My guess is that the next 2-3 seasons will see no manufacturer entry, although after that manufacturers will return and whoever owns Vauxhall at the time will be one of the entries in BTCC.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Where does the truth lie? My guess is that the next 2-3 seasons will see no manufacturer entry, although after that manufacturers will return and whoever owns Vauxhall at the time will be one of the entries in BTCC.

The first point to make is that even if FIAT buys Vauxhall, that does not assure its security as a car manufacturer or a brand. The acquisition is far from sure footed and even if it is, figure a monumental amount of consolidation/integration happening. I feel the chances of Vauxhall's involvement in motorsport as a works entrant ever again are very remote. Sad though that is, it pales in comparison to the plight of Vauxhall's 5,000 workers and those of its suppliers. Worrying times for sure.

[awrb]

True, davyboy. Fiat, orr whoever ends up with GM Europe, will possibly even get rid of the Vauxhall brand, and we'll have Opels over here, shipped over from Germany. I don't think their chances as a works entrant is remote however. Once car sales pick up again in a few years, I imagine manufacturers will look back to touring car racing as a means of promotion again. We just need to hope the independent teams can hold the championship out until then, and I have no doubt they can in the BTCC. The WTCC however...