[Driver] Nico vs Michael

[beau1]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

He can go on about "just having fun out there" but being hammered race in race out must be quite a painful experience.

How many races has he actually been 'hammered' in so far though? More than a slight over-emphasis I think.
In Bahrain he finished 5 seconds behind Rosberg, quite a pleasing result for someone that has not raced for 3 years.
In Austrialia he qualified one position behind Nico and was 4th before the first corner, 3 places ahead of Nico. Had he not got involved in the first corner shunt then I can confidently say that he would have stayed ahead of Nico.
People might argue that he could not get passed Jamie but we saw Hamilton today get stuck behind Sutil for 15 laps. Typically, I don't see any criticism there against a currently in form ex-world champion. We also saw Massa struggle to get passed Buemi for 10 laps.
At Malaysia, Schumacher was poor in Qualifying yes but again he had made ground in the first few laps whereas Nico had lost a place. Schumacher retired on lap 11, Nico had no problems and secured an easy podium.

Nico is doing a great job, Schumacher almost certainly could be better but considering the bad luck and the apparent non-criticism of drivers that prehaps should be doing better, I would hardly say he's having a 'hammering'.

He can go and have fun, he's got nothing left to achieve and if he is having a 'hammering' its not affecting its attitude.

[rocketracer]

well said.

he's been punted off the road through no fault of his own, and suffered a mechanical failure in his last 2 races, and both times whilst running in the top 5...

it's far from the disgrace that people are making it out to be....

[Knowlesy]

Typically we see no criticism for Hamilton.... wah, wah wah.... pathetic.

I don't think TGF is being criticised here anyways. It's just an observation that things aren't so easy for him now and there are a variety of reasons for that.

[foreversideways]

Schumacher is like a shark tracking you in the water while you swim and Nico is due for a big shock the moment when it all comes together for him. He is an intelligent and patient man and won't be concerned about what has happened in the first 3 races. In fact i imagine that he is rather pleased that he is easily in the top ten after a three year layoff. As for the fitness issue, it's an irrelevance, he is driving a racing car not competing in a triathlon. The media have always liked to hype the physical requirements of driving a grand prix car, it makes for a better image and anyway Michael even at 41 is a supremely fit individual.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Typically we see no criticism for Hamilton.... wah, wah wah.... pathetic.

I don't think TGF is being criticised here anyways. It's just an observation that things aren't so easy for him now and there are a variety of reasons for that.

There was a lot of criticism earlier in the thread about him not being able to pass Jamie, I was merely making the observation that exactly the same could be said about Hamilton or Massa today. If you want to take that completly out of context then go ahead.
People having double standards is whats pathetic.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Then you know little about marketing with all due respect to you.....Michael Schumacher is the most marketable driver ever to sit in a F1 car..Period

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

But marketing is dull and really irrelevant to you and I. We just want to see fast drivers and, well, we had plenty of them already. TGF coming back was exciting initially but now feels as thrilling as semolina. So far it has been like your dad inviting himself to the park with you for a kickabout, to show you he's still got it, but turning his ankle over before he goes for the first kick.

Precisely. Bernie Ecclestone is interested in having marketable drivers in F1. I couldn't care less who's marketable, I'd rather enjoy watching them race, and so far this season - recognising that there are still plenty of races left - TGF is just making me cringe slightly. As I've said already, there are no arguments with his past achievements, but I'm very much in the "does he really need to be doing this?" camp.

[Born Racer]

I've got more respect for him now for being there for fun (and to win of course- that's a big part of the fun), and since his Top Gear appearance where he had good humour in the way he responded to Clarkson's ways.

[Schummy]

I think the most "worrying" aspect of MS's performance so far is not the amount of points respecting Nico, but his laptimes along the weekends, particularly when it matters (qualifying, races). By now he has not been able to top Nico in terms of speed.

Rosberg is good but until this moment of his career he is not a superfast driver, few rate him as equal to Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton (in speed), so the comparison with MS is more revealing.

The point with MS is he is possible rusty (still), so we will see if by mid season the status has changed or not.

By the way, and not totally off-topic, I think the last MS (in his winning seasons) was not so fast as his peak years. He had a great car, great development/testing skills and excellent knowledge about how to do things in a GP/season, but I felt his peak raw speed years had passed (so it is not terribly surprising the current situation). Even so, he went on being one of the fastest drivers in one lap in 2006.

[Born Racer]

He will get the better of Rosberg in the next few races, but he will never have a huge margin of superiority over him on a regular basis (my prediction).

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by beau1

He can go and have fun, he's got nothing left to achieve and if he is having a 'hammering' its not affecting its attitude.

I don't think he's out there to simply have some fun and i'm sure that Mercades are paying him to win races and titles.

With regards to his current performances, maybe we are expecting more of him and i maintain that he'd be expecting more of himself and maybe, now, we can see that Ferrari were correct in "pushing him out" in favour of Kimi, he reached his peak and the only way to go from there is downwards (in comparison).

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I don't think he's out there to simply have some fun and i'm sure that Mercades are paying him to win races and titles.

With regards to his current performances, maybe we are expecting more of him and i maintain that he'd be expecting more of himself and maybe, now, we can see that Ferrari were correct in "pushing him out" in favour of Kimi, he reached his peak and the only way to go from there is downwards (in comparison).

In an Autosport editorial a little while back Mark Hughes did a detailed and comprehensive analysis of Michael Schumacher's final season at Ferrari in 2006. The conclusion was that he more than had the measure of Massa and was deprived of the title as a result of issues beyond his control. Given his greater experience of the Bridgestones, its entirely plausible that he could have taken the 2007 WDC. These are Mark Hughes' comments and not mine.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I don't think he's out there to simply have some fun and i'm sure that Mercades are paying him to win races and titles.

With regards to his current performances, maybe we are expecting more of him and i maintain that he'd be expecting more of himself and maybe, now, we can see that Ferrari were correct in "pushing him out" in favour of Kimi, he reached his peak and the only way to go from there is downwards (in comparison).

Ah now, I have to disagree. TGF was devastating in 2006, when the car was right.

He was second best to Alonso marginally, but certainly shouldn't have been ousted to make way for Kimi who made a passable impression of a dribbling vegetable for three seasons at Maranello.

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by davyboy

In an Autosport editorial a little while back Mark Hughes did a detailed and comprehensive analysis of Michael Schumacher's final season at Ferrari in 2006. The conclusion was that he more than had the measure of Massa and was deprived of the title as a result of issues beyond his control. Given his greater experience of the Bridgestones, its entirely plausible that he could have taken the 2007 WDC. These are Mark Hughes' comments and not mine.

Plausible but we won't know, but surely if he was still at the peak of his powers, Ferrari wouldn't have felt the need to get Kimi in?

It's clear from the first three races that he is at the moment nowhere near as good as he was. I think the more worrying sign is that he has shown no improvement over the three rounds. Quali in Malaysia looked promising at one point, but then Rosberg ended it 6 places higher. Rosberg generally doesn't seem to be rated very highly any more, so that would point at Schu being way off the pace than Rosberg doing anything particularly good.

The one positive anyone can say is that he was ahead of Rosberg going into the first corner at Melbourne. Says it all really. Apart from that he's been beaten in every session that matters. Even when he retired on Sunday he was 5 or 6 seconds behind Rosberg, and that wouldn't have been made up at any point during the race.

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

TGF was devastating in 2006, when the car was right.

Surely "patchy" is the word you are looking for? Massa had to move over or be slowed at least three times that year, IIRC, and he made several costly mistakes either in races or in Q3. I certainly didn't think he looked devastating at any point that year.

I guess if we want to be picky, "when the car was right" would reflect a drop in performance as well. He used to be devastating whatever the car was like.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Plausible but we won't know, but surely if he was still at the peak of his powers, Ferrari wouldn't have felt the need to get Kimi in?

I don't remember seeing anything from Ferrari claiming that they instigated his replacement with Kimi.

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Rosberg generally doesn't seem to be rated very highly any more, so that would point at Schu being way off the pace than Rosberg doing anything particularly good.

Since when has he stopped being rated highly ? His biggest career mistake to date has been sticking with Williams for too long.

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Even when he retired on Sunday he was 5 or 6 seconds behind Rosberg, and that wouldn't have been made up at any point during the race.

Really ? Others managed to eliminate deficits greater than this... but then they did struggle get by those ahead of them... a bit like Schumacher in Oz.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Ah now, I have to disagree. TGF was devastating in 2006, when the car was right.

He was second best to Alonso marginally, but certainly shouldn't have been ousted to make way for Kimi who made a passable impression of a dribbling vegetable for three seasons at Maranello.

Ah now, i have to disagree

Ferrari needed to make a decision about the future, and while yes, Michael did have a good season, i'm sure he wouldn't have been happy had he been offered a short term contract, which is what Ferrari would have offered.

Secondly, Kimi was disappointing during his time at Ferrari, but who would have predicted that? Ferrari couldn't have known could they.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Ah now, I have to disagree. TGF was devastating in 2006, when the car was right.

He was second best to Alonso marginally, but certainly shouldn't have been ousted to make way for Kimi who made a passable impression of a dribbling vegetable for three seasons at Maranello.

Completely agree with your description of Kimi. One post suggests MS would have won in 2007 because of his greater knowledge of Bridgestone. I agree, Kimi was woeful apart from the 2nd half of 2007. To my mind that was Mclaren imploding anyway, and I am certain that they were ordered to lose the Driver's championship too.
I knew Ferrari had made a mistake as soon as the rumours had started. If they had signed Alonso, I could understand MS leaving, but not for Kimi.

Another point that people forget, 2006 was a tyre war. When Bridgestone got it right, Ferrari were truly devastating. But they were the only leading Bridgestone runner. When Michelin got it right, they had Mclaren, Renault, BAR, Williams etc etc all fighting for race wins and points. Effectively taking points off each other.
The last great Schumi drive to my mind was France 2006, when he was trailing Alonso and they switched to a 4 stop strategy.
As safc says, MS used to be devastating regardless of car. The true greats win races that they shouldn't possibly be in contention. In 2006, MS needed the advantage.
I think MS was in dominant cars too long. In the same way that a driver can be in poor machinery and it effects his racing afterwards, I feel the same was true of MS. After 2000, where he fought for the championship, 2001 he cruised, 2002 was dominance, 2004 was dominance. Only 2003 did he look shaky in races.
I respect the guy enormousy, because he won 72 GP and 5 WDC and 6 WCC whilst he drove for "my" team.

I hope Schumi doesn't go the same way that Lauda did. Lauda's respected for what he achieved but he hardly ever features in Top 10 driver surveys. Yet his record before 1979 was awesome, 1974 to 1977 he was simply the greatest. But his legacy includes the Mclaren years, when he defeated Prost through stealth rather than speed.

[strider]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

To my mind that was Mclaren imploding anyway, and I am certain that they were ordered to lose the Driver's championship too.

That remark is so ridiculous that it undermines the credibility of anything else you say, and please don't write another chapter in reply because I really don't have the time or energy for it.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by strider

That remark is so ridiculous that it undermines the credibility of anything else you say, and please don't write another chapter in reply because I really don't have the time or energy for it.

ah huh...

[raindog]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

To my mind that was Mclaren imploding anyway, and I am certain that they were ordered to lose the Driver's championship too.

I too believe McLaren were "told" to lose the championship, but if that means my remark is also "so ridiculous that it undermines the credibility of anything else you say" then I'm out of here.
I think, one day, we may know the truth about that season but it'll be a while coming.
Bye guys, I've loved reading the techy stuff here, there are some knowledgeable posters, but there's also an arrogant minority who are "always right"

[Super Hans]

Previously I'd have found herowassenna's suggestion ridiculous, but in light of the events at Singapore I'm disinclined to rule anything out completely.

Anyway, let's keep things civil chaps.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Previously I'd have found herowassenna's suggestion ridiculous, but in light of the events at Singapore I'm disinclined to rule anything out completely.

Anyway, let's keep things civil chaps.

I agree about Singapore. Whatever transpired there, Alonso still had to go out and win the race. If Ferrari's pit stop had worked as it should have done, Massa would have won the race, he stopped for fuel because of the safety car after all.
I still remember the picture of Max Mosley and Ron Dennis shaking hands. Talk about chewing on a wasp....

[BootsOntheSide]

I'll admit that Schumacher was on for a good result in Melbourne if it wasn't for the first-lap incident which wasn't his fault, but I'm still underwhelmed overall. His pace in Q3 at Sepang in the wet was well short of his old standards, and he showed little spark in Bahrain. It's too early to write him off completely, but my money is on him not starting next season, maybe not even completing this one.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

I agree about Singapore. Whatever transpired there, Alonso still had to go out and win the race. If Ferrari's pit stop had worked as it should have done, Massa would have won the race, he stopped for fuel because of the safety car after all.
I still remember the picture of Max Mosley and Ron Dennis shaking hands. Talk about chewing on a wasp....

What relevance does Mosley & Dennis's handshake have? As I recall, that happened in the paddock at the 2007 Belgian Grand Prix.

[kezza7]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I'll admit that Schumacher was on for a good result in Melbourne if it wasn't for the first-lap incident which wasn't his fault, but I'm still underwhelmed overall. His pace in Q3 at Sepang in the wet was well short of his old standards, and he showed little spark in Bahrain. It's too early to write him off completely, but my money is on him not starting next season, maybe not even completing this one.

He was only slow in Sepang Q3 because he went for his fastest lap too early, instead of waiting to see if the track improves, an easy mistake to make. All in all, it hasn't been the dream start to his new career, but after 3 races isn't the time to say he shouldn't have come back and now he's rubbish and whatever. He's a 7 TIMES F1 champion, sometimes you gotta remember that.

(Also, i believe Rosberg is a fantastic driver, and much better than some seem to think)