Has "sportsmanship" gone from F1? - Page 6

Thaw Daggerslash · 6 Apr 2013, 21:53 (Ref:3230080)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teretonga

That sort of obedience /respect for team orders/your team mate was not in evidence in Malaysia. Is F1 worse for that. I think so

Seriously? It's people like Rosberg who spoil the spectacle of F1 in my opinion. Sitting behind your team mate and obeying team orders may well be "sporting" or "respectful", but it ain't half boring for the fans. If Vettel hadn't overtaken Webber, I think I'd possibly have nodded off in those last few laps. How boring would it have been if we'd had the "spectacle" of Vettel and Rosberg both holding station? Very.

I want to see racing drivers actually RACING to the end of the race. That's the whole point of it. I want to see that, not a boring demonstration of pointless team orders.

**Adam43** · 6 Apr 2013, 22:38 (Ref:3230094)

I was going to suggest you watch another branch of motorsport instead, but as I can't think of one that would match your criteria.

luke g28 · 6 Apr 2013, 22:43 (Ref:3230096)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Seriously? It's people like Rosberg who spoil the spectacle of F1 in my opinion. Sitting behind your team mate and obeying team orders may well be "sporting" or "respectful", but it ain't half boring for the fans. If Vettel hadn't overtaken Webber, I think I'd possibly have nodded off in those last few laps. How boring would it have been if we'd had the "spectacle" of Vettel and Rosberg both holding station? Very.

I want to see racing drivers actually RACING to the end of the race. That's the whole point of it. I want to see that, not a boring demonstration of pointless team orders.

thing is it was only because webber was told to slow down by the team that vettel caught up.

**Adam43** · 6 Apr 2013, 22:43 (Ref:3230097)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Original Instag8or

So Vettel has violated some "sportsmanship" standards by refusing to follow team orders...

Since when are "team orders" considered in any way shape or form "sportsmanlike"?

Since at least the era of Moss and that era didn't invent it. The definition of sportsmanlike is one that involves not being self centred and winning isn't everything. While maybe the word 'orders' doesn't fit 'team' most certainly does. You only need orders if you have individuals who don't act as a team.

MarkG · 6 Apr 2013, 22:51 (Ref:3230102)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Seriously? It's people like Rosberg who spoil the spectacle of F1 in my opinion. Sitting behind your team mate and obeying team orders may well be "sporting" or "respectful", but it ain't half boring for the fans. If Vettel hadn't overtaken Webber, I think I'd possibly have nodded off in those last few laps. How boring would it have been if we'd had the "spectacle" of Vettel and Rosberg both holding station? Very.

I want to see racing drivers actually RACING to the end of the race. That's the whole point of it. I want to see that, not a boring demonstration of pointless team orders.

I sort of see your point, but you can't think of Grand Prix racing like kart racing or formula ford. There will be times where wheel to wheel stuff happens, there will be times when it's processional. Look at all the aspects of Grand Prix racing from the perspective of all parties involved, you might get more out of it.

Thaw Daggerslash · 6 Apr 2013, 23:17 (Ref:3230106)

Quote:

Originally Posted by luke g28

thing is it was only because webber was told to slow down by the team that vettel caught up.

Unless my memory fails me, Mark only just came out ahead of Seb after his last stop. They were never exactly a million miles apart. If Vettel had been 30 seconds behind and caught up really quickly or something like that, I'd agree. But that wasn't the case.

So tough poo Mark, but that's racing. Deal with it and come back stronger next time.

Quote:

I sort of see your point, but you can't think of Grand Prix racing like kart racing or formula ford. There will be times where wheel to wheel stuff happens, there will be times when it's processional. Look at all the aspects of Grand Prix racing from the perspective of all parties involved, you might get more out of it.

But it seems so unnecessary, especially when it's only the second race of the season and it is all to play for. They didn't tangle, so what's the problem? It was great entertainment for the fans. Sometimes I think people within F1 care too much about themselves, and not really about the fans and what is good for the sport. They're racing drivers, just let them get on with it.

I've never been the biggest McLaren fan, but I have to hand it to them, when JB and Lewis were team mates, they let them race. There were several times it could've ended in a crash for one or both, but didn't. Think of Turkey '10, Turkey '11 or more recently, Brazil '12.

You fight to the bell in boxing. You race to the chequered flag in motorsport, not any time before. Otherwise, what's the point in even having a bleeding race if they've decided who is going to finish where before the race is even over? If that's the case, might as well just give the points out after quali, then pack up and go home. It'd save an awful lot of money.

The Original Instag8or · 6 Apr 2013, 23:40 (Ref:3230112)

So, all you "Team Orders" fans, how many of you watch NASCAR? How about the "lead changes" that occur amongst NASCAR teammates, when the leader slows to let his mate "earn" the extra points for "leading" a lap? Does that also fit your criteria of "sportsmanship"?

Paradise City · 7 Apr 2013, 01:34 (Ref:3230139)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Original Instag8or

So, all you "Team Orders" fans, how many of you watch NASCAR? How about the "lead changes" that occur amongst NASCAR teammates, when the leader slows to let his mate "earn" the extra points for "leading" a lap? Does that also fit your criteria of "sportsmanship"?

I'm not sure what point you are making. An F1 driver obeying team orders and Kyle Busch giving Hamlin points are behaviours that are not inconsistent with each other. In the latter example Busch is sacrificing a little for his stable. I say stable because in NASCAR each individual car is a team in its own right.

It comes down to this. A man lives up to the agreements he enters into. By signing up to Red Bull SV accepted the authority of the team. SV broke this agreement and undermined the authority of the team who worked to give him his car. In doing so he robbed Webber who lived up to his agreement with the team - an agreement Webber didn't abandon. That's why SV invites the criticism that he does atm.

garcon · 7 Apr 2013, 09:32 (Ref:3230273)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Original Instag8or

So, all you "Team Orders" fans, how many of you watch NASCAR? How about the "lead changes" that occur amongst NASCAR teammates, when the leader slows to let his mate "earn" the extra points for "leading" a lap? Does that also fit your criteria of "sportsmanship"?

Nothing wrong in that whatsoever, so yes it does.

**Born Racer** · 7 Apr 2013, 09:46 (Ref:3230281)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

Webber did adhere to the team order though, IIRC. Showed his nose, showed he was faster. Stayed behind.

You're wrong on that: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...1/7/12293.html

Quote:

Q: (Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Mark, Christian Horner has said that you should be fine with the team orders at the end and if you and Seb had raced until the end you would both have ended up in the fence. Do you agree with that? Was it the right call? Does this mean realistically that you are out of this championship?

MW: I am not fine with it. No. That's the answer to that. If Fernando retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best. I don't want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I wasn't talking too much back. There was a lot of traffic coming to me, but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front.

Q: (Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Do you remember roughly how many messages you had?
MW: Probably four or five.

So Seb has been vilified for something that Mark was not.

**Adam43** · 7 Apr 2013, 09:57 (Ref:3230286)

Not how I remembered it and Herbert backed that up on the F1 show. Oh well.

I am still less than convinced it was similar. Not least due to the actions afterwards, the result, the lead up to the attempted pass and the answers to questions afterwards. Any multi 12?

Still as it was the same then Webber should have stayed behind.

As for vilifying Vettel? If I explain how much I like Vettel and how much I like Webber would that help? Shouldn't really make a difference to my opinion on Vettels actions during the latest GP.

If the argument is that both did something wrong I'm fine with that. What a team.

**Born Racer** · 7 Apr 2013, 10:02 (Ref:3230290)

I don't know if you have vilified Vettel. I just mean that, on balance, people are calling him out for this and defending Mark when Mark has clearly shown he would do exactly the same.

**Adam43** · 7 Apr 2013, 10:28 (Ref:3230305)

If he was quick enough.

jedrinck · 7 Apr 2013, 10:45 (Ref:3230312)

In the light of that Silverstone press conference I find Webber's response hypocritical.
But maybe there were new agreements in place before the Malaysia GP Vettel's disregard of which led to Webber feeling betrayed and Vettel being compelled to apologize.

**Aysedasi** · 7 Apr 2013, 11:17 (Ref:3230322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I don't know if you have vilified Vettel. I just mean that, on balance, people are calling him out for this and defending Mark when Mark has clearly shown he would do exactly the same.

Yeah, but he'd probably be honest about it afterwards.

**Born Racer** · 7 Apr 2013, 15:30 (Ref:3230413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

If he was quick enough.

That's half of Australia turning in their sleep with that comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedrinck

In the light of that Silverstone press conference I find Webber's response hypocritical.
But maybe there were new agreements in place before the Malaysia GP Vettel's disregard of which led to Webber feeling betrayed and Vettel being compelled to apologize.

I suppose one key difference may be that Vettel agreed to a Multi 21/ Multi 12 arrangement and Webber may never have given prior agreement to the Silverstone order.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yeah, but he'd probably be honest about it afterwards.

And that is one of most major causes of the bitter taste residue - that he wouldn't admit he had thought of "number 1" in the moment and instead chose to deliver some confusing claptrap about hearing the message but not realising he was disobeying it or whatever it was.

**Aysedasi** · 7 Apr 2013, 17:02 (Ref:3230453)

Exactly so - and this is the point that so many here seem determined to ignore, preferring instead to mask the situation with blather about team orders and how dreadful they are.......

Beetle · 7 Apr 2013, 19:14 (Ref:3230505)

I think, unless I'm missing some massive point in this conversation, that Vettel said he was truthfully sorry and will obey team orders from this point. He's really been under the gun as of late. Here's something I wrote about him immediately after the race:

Quote:

"He is, unmistakably, the most cowardly portion of rancid vermin I've seen in ages; an atrocious specimen of a man, laden with a resisting repugnance so foul that the bluntest of nostrils could pick up the fetid odor of his conceited, supercilious demeanor a mile away."

I was angry.

...he said he's sorry, that's all he has to do. Horner's serious about it now, and he (Vettel) knows he can't do it again. Not much more to discuss...

**Aysedasi** · 7 Apr 2013, 19:33 (Ref:3230517)

Don't you hold back now Beetle............

**Bononi** · 7 Apr 2013, 19:38 (Ref:3230520)

Redblurr · 8 Apr 2013, 18:01 (Ref:3231044)

What annoys me is that the teams can control or attempt to control races, it will be interesting to see how far this goes this year and what reaction it receives from the fans.

**Peter Mallett** · 8 Apr 2013, 18:07 (Ref:3231046)

Sadly, if the fans of which you speak, are knowledgeable and thus born racers, they will already know that team orders are part of F1. If however, they are not fans, then who cares? They won't.

**Aysedasi** · 8 Apr 2013, 20:15 (Ref:3231113)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redblurr

What annoys me is that the teams can control or attempt to control races, it will be interesting to see how far this goes this year and what reaction it receives from the fans.

You mean if it goes as far as last year, and the year before that, and ten years before that.....?

**Adam43** · 8 Apr 2013, 20:38 (Ref:3231130)

Is it going to go further than before? What could they do? Pull a car into the pits and let another driver take over after theirs has retired?

Redblurr · 8 Apr 2013, 21:03 (Ref:3231148)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

You mean if it goes as far as last year, and the year before that, and ten years before that.....?

What on earth are you on about?