Chevron B16

[national8]

[QUOTE=p261brm]Also from the article in Car & Classic;[Quote]By this time Roger Andreason had taken over what was left of Chevron after it folded in 1980, and was trading under the name Chevron Cars and not Derek Bennett Engineering, as had been the case in Chevron’s heyday.

This Quote is as I understand the history, is only true in part, and as such is a contribution to the confusion; as to who owns what today, in particular reference to the registered design i.e. the badge/logo on the front of the cars. I always have understood Robin Smith et al bought the residue from the receiver, moving the whole to Scotland outbidding Bob Howlings. Derek Bennett engineering is; again as I understand to be, owned by Vin & Helen Malkie along with the registered design. Roger bought his invovlement from Robin Smith etal.

Confusing I agree.On 11 January 1977 Derek Bennett Engineering Ltd changed name to Chevron Racing Cars Ltd.
Not sure what name Robin Smith's company traded under but Roger Andreasson and Tim Colman traded as Chevron Cars Ltd until ?
Vin Malkie has traded under Vin Malkie Racing, Derek Bennett Engineering and Chevron Racing Team Ltd over the years if letterheads are to be believed.
Who owns what now is anyones guess.

[chrisks]

Roger Andreason and Tim Colman bought the assets from the liquidator of Chevron Cars Ltd. Mr. A and Mr. C sold a majority shateholding of their company to me, Chris Smith in 2006. They remain as shareholders.
The archives i.e. drawings, jigs moulds etc reside with me in darkest West Midlands.
The origins can be traced all the way back to Bolton.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by chrisks

Roger Andreason and Tim Colman bought the assets from the liquidator of Chevron Cars Ltd. Mr. A and Mr. C sold a majority shateholding of their company to me, Chris Smith in 2006. They remain as shareholders.
The archives i.e. drawings, jigs moulds etc reside with me in darkest West Midlands.
The origins can be traced all the way back to Bolton.

Under that premise then any car produced by Chevron Cars Ltd today to the original designs and manufactured in original materials will be able to obtain HTP's are acceptable in historic events, and Chevron Cars Ltd own the rights to the registered design.

[chrisks]

At long last someone has worked that out!!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chrisks

At long last someone has worked that out!!

but is still a bone of contention for others?

[p261brm]

Then to continue producing cars for example the B16, Cosworth can look forward to a rush of orders for FVC's Girling for AR calipers Ferodo for DS11 pads even Hewland will look forward to a rush of orders for gearboxes ad infinitum, simply because; and I say this without any aspersions to either of the company's who claim to be the one and only; those who thought they had one of only a handfull of 'genuine Bi6's' the investment is going to be worth nothing, or at the very least the price of a new one. Only one blot on the landscape, sorry I for one will not accept any thing built after 1978 and constructed any where else other than the mill Manchester Road Bolton as a Chevron, and I have an inkling there are a few similar minded people who would agree.

[allenbrown]

Regardless of the ownership of Chevron - and I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with the company history that Chris gives - a car built today and called a Chevron B16 will only qualify for a HTP if it is in correct B16 spec. Building a B16 in the original jigs in the original factory and under the auspices of the original company makes not a jot of difference to whether it earns a HTP. HTPs are about specification, not about history.

HCs (Heritage Certificates) are about originality so continuation cars, regardless of who is doing the continuation, don't get them.

Tyrrell P34s built in the 1990s and Ferrari 312T4s built in the mid or late 1980s don't get them either. Or shouldn't...

Allen

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

HCs (Heritage Certificates) are about originality so continuation cars, regardless of who is doing the continuation, don't get them.

Tyrrell P34s built in the 1990s and Ferrari 312T4s built in the mid or late 1980s don't get them either. Or shouldn't...

That is the problem Allen, they are getting them, and cars are being altered out of all recognition from the 'in period' spec.

[driftwood]

bottom line is our great leader (basement max) has really cocked it all up
FIA should have2 or 3 levels of papers
level 1 is for pure unadulterated cars with COMPLETE provenance of ownership line with race results AS adverts letters from previous owners etc and the car being in correct period spec wit correct engien spec ie VFc not BDG
level 2 being cars that do not fully conform to level 1 but do not show signs of being fake air/continuation cars or cars built with dodgy looking parts ( or superior materials ie thicke gauage metals beter glue lighteweight panels altered suspension points form teh factory drawings) engines body mods or have abreak in ownership history to support the claim ( and FIA can recind papers if a dispute arises)
level 3 to cater for fakes/ air/ conituation cars
this will allow people to judge values
level 1 being prime cars level 3 bottom of the pile and race orgaisers to agree what level cars they want
ie Goodwood revival in theory should be level 1 cars only
TGP F1 level 1 cars with level 2 if grids are down
Classic LM level 1 cars
CER Masters level 1& 2 for sports cars
orwell im afraid has become a bit "loose" with its specs ie 300 bhp BDG so its level 3 upto level 1
its not just sports cars that have iffy cars F Jnr F2 F3 have them
HTP has done nothing to sort out the cars its all rather messy and allowed people to create these ridiculas continuation cars and the owners believe their own BS and cannot face the truth that they have fake/replica cars
If i build a car with a genuine factory built tub and misc parts call it the same as the factory model i would have the decency to fit a plate with a chassis number well out of sequence with the factory run of cars and add the letter R or C after the number so its was clear its a replica or continuation car

sadly its all too late to alter it all now so I am off to build continuation P34 tyrrells and ford F3L`s

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

bottom line is our great leader (basement max) has really cocked it all up
FIA should have2 or 3 levels of papers
level 1 is for pure unadulterated cars with COMPLETE provenance of ownership line with race results AS adverts letters from previous owners etc and the car being in correct period spec wit correct engien spec ie VFc not BDG
l

I only quoted part of your post, just to save bandwith, but yes there is some point in stratifying the entries levels. However to call Max the root of all evil is a bit far fetched, as he probably never stooped to down to something as lowly as historic racing.
Nevertheless, this level 1 is where I have the most problems with. What determines an original racing car? It gets developed over time, get different engines and may end up quite different from how it started. Do you want the B16 being put in the shape at which it debuted at the Ring? So without the additional spoilers on the rear cover?
I think there is a story about a 4 pot Lola racing at LeMans (Nick Mason was involved) which kept on doing so for years, and even changed its type designation to fool the organisers....tell me what you think the "level 1" version of that car would be?
Finally, giving proper R or C extensions to chassis numbers (like done for all but one BRM P25) is a good thing.

[p261brm]

Unfortunately I have to agree with Driftwood, unless the conrolling body in the UK blows the FIA out of the frame we are stuck with it, so are the owners of correct period cars, with all that entails, including competing at a disadvantage against cars where drver's/owners are not so tetchy about damage in the normal course of racing. Perhaps the answer is no championships no FIA, then falling grids.......workshop, 5 gallon drum, large hammer beckons

[henk4]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Unfortunately I have to agree with Driftwood, unless the conrolling body in the UK blows the FIA out of the frame we are stuck with it, so are the owners of correct period cars, with all that entails, including competing at a disadvantage against cars where drver's/owners are not so tetchy about damage in the normal course of racing. Perhaps the answer is no championships no FIA, then falling grids.......workshop, 5 gallon drum, large hammer beckons

Why is it unfortunate to agree with Driftwood???
I know there is much dislike in the UK regarding Max, but to personally hold him responsible for the historic FIA mess goes too far. On the other hand also the organisers of historic events have some degrees of freedom about the cars they admit. (One of the CER main sponsors is allowed to run a continuation chassis....)

[p261brm]

I have the impression that some of the more bizarre traits of the English language are causing problems. Why is it unfortuanate? I wish I did not have to agree with driftwood, if we did not have the FIA producing such policies like HTP's we would not have the problems they cause and driftwood would not have stated as he did; as for Comrade Moseley like it says in the Whitehouse 'The Buck Stops Here' I will refrain from commenting further simply because neither place or time to do so.

[driftwood]

Why is it unfortunate to agree with Driftwood??? no one loves me !!
basement max changed the rules to suit his mate and in the course of things fkditup for all of us until then all was fine in the kitchen now we have all the fake cars running around geeting HTP left right n centre
If you went to auction house to buy a van gogh at £4 mil for your private art collection you expect it to be the only 1 and not later find another "copy" at half the price so why should cars have duplicate chassi numbers- all these cars should be called to a specific meeting point with papers FULL history and letters photos to substantiate their claim
A board of 3 wisemen ajudicate and remove the fake plates and papers afix a plate with a replica number and assign papers accordingly and this will get rid of the 3 car 36 /35 etc for B16

[national8]

Interesting discussion so far. Where does this leave B16-DBE-75NZ? As you can all see from the referenced magazine article there is no smoke screen/obfuscation associated with this car. Maybe Drifty's 3 Wise Men can adjudicate. I note chassis number 32? is for sale in London.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by national8

Interesting discussion so far. Where does this leave B16-DBE-75NZ? As you can all see from the referenced magazine article there is no smoke screen/obfuscation associated with this car. Maybe Drifty's 3 Wise Men can adjudicate. I note chassis number 32? is for sale in London.

the problem is that most (?) of the B16s currently racing PRETEND that they are original. And even if you ask the drivers directly they will say their car has a continuous history....starting somewhere in the eighties

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by national8

Interesting discussion so far. Where does this leave B16-DBE-75NZ? As you can all see from the referenced magazine article there is no smoke screen/obfuscation associated with this car. Maybe Drifty's 3 Wise Men can adjudicate. I note chassis number 32? is for sale in London.

The NZ car is what it is, a re-creation/replica, not a fake as no claim has been made as to originality, as remarked before one mans idea. Can not comment on chassis 32 as my intimite knowledge of the B16 ceased to be centre stage from mid 1971 [other than only 23 are recorded as being built in Bolton] as the progression moved to B19/21/23 series of cars. By 1972 many 16's had been converted to 19's/21's, i.e. the Tucket/Fletcher car. Simon Hadfield is spot on when he stated only a handfull of totally original cars exsist today.

[driftwood]

all thwe guys who say theor cars history starts in the 80`s are inadvertantly admitting they have afake car
If they cannot produce a trail form befor ethis date they are essentially stufed
as far as i am concerned haf the B19 21 cars are fakes as well
It is well known that some b16 cars where upgraded to b19 or 21 cars and it is blatantly obvious that some B19 cars then became b21 cars having upgardes at thefactry and having new plates afixed same goes for B21 into b23 cars
so in essence 1 b16 car can evolve into a B19 then 21 and possibly a 23 allowing the fakers to recreate at least 1 poss 2 Gp 6 cars when really 1 car is all of the models

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

all thwe guys who say theor cars history starts in the 80`s are inadvertantly admitting they have afake car
If they cannot produce a trail form befor ethis date they are essentially stufed
as far as i am concerned haf the B19 21 cars are fakes as well
It is well known that some b16 cars where upgraded to b19 or 21 cars and it is blatantly obvious that some B19 cars then became b21 cars having upgardes at thefactry and having new plates afixed same goes for B21 into b23 cars
so in essence 1 b16 car can evolve into a B19 then 21 and possibly a 23 allowing the fakers to recreate at least 1 poss 2 Gp 6 cars when really 1 car is all of the models

just a question, if a B16 can be upgraded as you say, can a B19/21 also be "downgraded" in order to appreciate in value? And if so has that happened? And if an original B16 has gone through all these stage and is now finally back to B16 specs, what is it?

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by henk4

just a question, if a B16 can be upgraded as you say, can a B19/21 also be "downgraded" in order to appreciate in value? And if so has that happened? And if an original B16 has gone through all these stage and is now finally back to B16 specs, what is it?

Of course, but if a car was a 16 then upgraded to 19/21/23 spec the chassis remains as original a B16. The Tuckett/Fletcher B16 which they bought from Skailes is such a car. They upgraded to later spec, then a pang of nostagia and converted it back with all the original bodywork which they kept, and still have the car. If a B21 is converted into a B16 it remains a B21, it might be aesthetically a B16 but it is a 21, in my book any way, others might not agree.

[driftwood]

Now there poses a valid question
Ifa B16 is a known car to have been converted to say a b19 or b 21 and raced in period with the correct plate and is stillin that spec then the car is a B21
I see no reason why it cannot be converted back to a B16 and the B21 car ceases to exist
The problem exists on how do you stop a smart ass/faker ( or even the B16 owner!) creating a B21 with that chassis number that has now returned to its original spec and plated car and who is the adjudictor cant have these Chevron people playing "God" so it should be the FIA with a separate room filled with data and 3 wise men ( not race prep people or current historic paper inspectors to many conflicts of interest) who will pour scorn on your claim until you can prove your case otherwise
I had this very discussion last night with a prep man who has a B19 for sale that was a B16 conversion and i said return it to the B18 and enhance the value as teh B19 entity is over priced in its present form but for £10k ish he can refit the B16 body and it will make its money in this current ( over inflated) market
There are a few other cars that have been 1 thing and later beacme somethin else
ie Gulf Mirage cars the car evolved into 3 different titles with motors and bodywork changes
certain March F2 cars where upgraded and raced but they generally have a known traceable lineage of the owners the mods races entered to balance out the cars
sadly the B16 19 21 23 is a totally muddy water scenario due to the fakers and its all thanks to basement max changing to the HTP from the FIA papers and there is no FIA data base listing every car built with every known race it did change of owners etc to make sure we do not have 3 cars of the same number around the world

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I had this very discussion last night with a prep man who has a B19 for sale that was a B16 conversion

so which chassis would that be? A number now being used by another car?????

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by henk4

so which chassis would that be? A number now being used by another car?????

There is no doubting the Tuckett/Fletcher car's provenance it is a B16, not withstanding it has been up the scale and back again, complete with all the cars origial parts. Chassis B16/08. I will check with Willie Tuckett but am sure it retained the B16 plate as 19/21/23 reason? The Red Rose B16 07; B16/07 going to Ken Walker as stated before, in 1971 and used by Walker in RAC/FIA events up till July 71 when I finished preparing the car.
Both B19's at RR in 71 were 07/08. In 1972 Bridges/Hine their B21's were 07/08.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by p261brm

There is no doubting the Tuckett/Fletcher car's provenance it is a B16, not withstanding it has been up the scale and back again, complete with all the cars origial parts.

are you certain that this is the car Driftwood is talking about

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by henk4

are you certain that this is the car Driftwood is talking about

Do not think so Henk, Driftwood is well aware of the Tuckett/Fletcher car. It is one you can be sure of, it is what it is, and any way it is not for sale as I am aware, it would need a good deal of re-commisioning before it could run. Its last appearance was the 40th birthday bash at Oulton Park.