Production Saloons from the 80's - Page 6

rallycrosscraig · 2 Jul 2007, 11:22 (Ref:1952191)

great pictures just was I was hoping might turn up, excellent, keep them coming!

GBRM · 2 Jul 2007, 12:07 (Ref:1952236)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Good one. That's right, Hugh drove Capris in mid 80's didn't he? So he drove your dad's old one then?

I often wondered if the blue roof car was originally Gerry's Triplex Grp 1 shell as the livery was basically the same?

Yeah, he raced them for a bit and I think there was a guy who raced with him but I can't remember properly, it will come to me though!!

No, it was a serperate car, the Triplex car was a proper Group 1/2/A car, that has been Colin Vandervells and I think it was a 3.0 Mark 2 with a Mark 3 body on it. The Autoplan Capri was a brand new 2.8 injection that Dad was developing for Ford. They were pretty similar schemes, plus Dad and Roger Dowson (GMR) built a load of 3.0 cars.

davyboy · 2 Jul 2007, 13:17 (Ref:1952293)

Gregor, did Gerry get the Capris free of charge from Ford and the Monzas FoC from GM etc... ? I remember reading in one of his columns in Autosport many moons ago that he was up and down to the local Ford dealer for body parts [wings, bumpers, lights etc...] after each race and had just assumed he was paying for it himself.

GBRM · 2 Jul 2007, 15:05 (Ref:1952430)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

Gregor, did Gerry get the Capris free of charge from Ford and the Monzas FoC from GM etc... ? I remember reading in one of his columns in Autosport many moons ago that he was up and down to the local Ford dealer for body parts [wings, bumpers, lights etc...] after each race and had just assumed he was paying for it himself.

Yes and no, it really depended on the manufacturer. Dad would be leant the car for the season and if at the end of the season if he wanted it then he would have to buy it. I think DTV were given the cars by Vauxhall and Dad would occassionally buy one, the Dolomites I'm not too sure on, I know there were a couple of loan cars but not sure if the all were, I don't know about the Monzas at all to be honest but he definitely owned the Teroson one himself before selling it to Tony Strawson, the Fiats were loans that Dad bought and the 2.8i Autoplan Capri was a loan. Luckily I have some of the paperwork for these, hence why I know really!! There were also loaned support and everyday vehicles thrown in too.

With reference to spares that would really depend on the deal he had, some would let you have them FOC, some would give them to you at heavily discounted rates, some on account and some wouldn't help at all and then you had to get the dealers to help in some way, which they did. The dealers also would loan support and everyday vehicles and would also loan a car for racing for the season.

I hope the above answers and isn't just me waffling!!

COLIN STUBBS · 2 Jul 2007, 18:23 (Ref:1952648)

How about some more??

davyboy · 2 Jul 2007, 18:29 (Ref:1952654)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBRM

Yes and no, it really depended on the manufacturer. Dad would be leant the car for the season and if at the end of the season if he wanted it then he would have to buy it. I think DTV were given the cars by Vauxhall and Dad would occassionally buy one, the Dolomites I'm not too sure on, I know there were a couple of loan cars but not sure if the all were, I don't know about the Monzas at all to be honest but he definitely owned the Teroson one himself before selling it to Tony Strawson, the Fiats were loans that Dad bought and the 2.8i Autoplan Capri was a loan. Luckily I have some of the paperwork for these, hence why I know really!! There were also loaned support and everyday vehicles thrown in too.

With reference to spares that would really depend on the deal he had, some would let you have them FOC, some would give them to you at heavily discounted rates, some on account and some wouldn't help at all and then you had to get the dealers to help in some way, which they did. The dealers also would loan support and everyday vehicles and would also loan a car for racing for the season.

I hope the above answers and isn't just me waffling!!

Not waffle at all... its great to have you here Gregor as we get a fascinating insight into what went on behind the scenes. Thanks for this.

Gerard Hodges · 3 Jul 2007, 01:04 (Ref:1952971)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBRM

It was a Dealer Team Opel effort, with Tony, John and Dad and the car Andrew Jeffrey drove was Dad's yellow fronted car, as Dad's license was on holiday. As an aside, tt was only at the end of the season that both Andrew and Tony admitted their licenses were on holiday too, Dad was not amused! that he'd missed a seaon of racing when they were all in the same boat!!

I remember Oulton Park, it was very wet and cold and I remember standing on a hill with Dad and his then wife when suddenly Squeaker launched himself into the side of the Monza in his BMW right in front of us!!

Someone had caught the moment of impact on camera, the BMW a couple of feet off the ground assaulting the driver's door of the Monza.

Dad had the photo framed and it read something like "A Welshamn attacking a Scotsman with an Englishman picking up the bill!". It was always on Dad's desk up until he passed away.

The car was buggered and I remember looking at it in the scruitineering bay afterwards, the front A pillar of the rollcage was wedged against the steering wheel, Andrew was very lucky not to have been hurt.

Hi Gregor i own the ex "WHIZZO WILLIAMS" BMW 635csi (RA2- 46) i am desperatley trying to trace it,s history, i know it was owned and run by Ted Grace but that is about it. you said your dad had a photo of the car hitting his monza. I would love any info / photographs / results that feature my car. As you can appreciate it is very hard to track this stuff from the other side of the world, any help would be great. The car came to NZ late 1985 i have restored it to its original specs and run it in historic raceing and classic tarmac rallies. If you have Barrie williams contact details i would love to get in touch with him.
Gerry Hodges.
NewZealand.

GBRM · 4 Jul 2007, 08:41 (Ref:1953996)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerard Hodges

Hi Gregor i own the ex "WHIZZO WILLIAMS" BMW 635csi (RA2- 46) i am desperatley trying to trace it,s history, i know it was owned and run by Ted Grace but that is about it. you said your dad had a photo of the car hitting his monza. I would love any info / photographs / results that feature my car. As you can appreciate it is very hard to track this stuff from the other side of the world, any help would be great. The car came to NZ late 1985 i have restored it to its original specs and run it in historic raceing and classic tarmac rallies. If you have Barrie williams contact details i would love to get in touch with him.
Gerry Hodges.
NewZealand.

Gerard - I've pm'd you Barrie's details and some other information.

GBRM · 4 Jul 2007, 08:52 (Ref:1954001)

Quote:

Originally Posted by COLIN STUBBS

How about some more??

Great pictures as ever Colin. I don't remember the top Capri and I'd forgotten that Martin ran his Merc in those colours.
I now remember the Monza in Red/White and I think that was Dad's yellow car, was it someone like Norris Miles or someone McCrudden who drove it?

**chunterer** · 4 Jul 2007, 09:06 (Ref:1954010)

Waspeze stickers and a yellow helmet mean it could be Mike Wilds or Ray Bellm or someone in that Olympus Capri? Waspeze sponsored the Gordon Spice C2 cars at the time and both of those drove for Spice at some point or others?

But 29 used to be the number of Peter Sugden's Capri in '85 I think?

Tony Strawson or Frank Cundell ran their Monza in a similar red/white livery to the one in the pic a few years later GBRM, so I wonder if the car in the pic was sold to one of them in the same livery?

GBRM · 4 Jul 2007, 11:24 (Ref:1954092)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Waspeze stickers and a yellow helmet mean it could be Mike Wilds or Ray Bellm or someone in that Olympus Capri? Waspeze sponsored the Gordon Spice C2 cars at the time and both of those drove for Spice at some point or others?

But 29 used to be the number of Peter Sugden's Capri in '85 I think?

Tony Strawson or Frank Cundell ran their Monza in a similar red/white livery to the one in the pic a few years later GBRM, so I wonder if the car in the pic was sold to one of them in the same livery?

I'm not sure if I've got any programmes from '85, I'll have to have a look but you could be right about the Capri.

Frank Cundell I think is who I was thinking of, might not be from theis early though and I'm remembering it from later. The Monza Tony ran in '86 was Dad's Teroson coloured car from earlier in the season, which was IIRC from Vintage G&T was Tony Lanfranchis's red-fronted Monza.

What's the answer Colin??

COLIN STUBBS · 4 Jul 2007, 19:19 (Ref:1954480)

Really must pay a visit to the attic and get the programmes out,but invarably it takes hours once you start looking at em!!!

GBRM · 4 Jul 2007, 19:52 (Ref:1954512)

Quote:

Originally Posted by COLIN STUBBS

As Colin doesn't want to get divorced just yet, I've done some digging on this one but my info is a little sketchy. This is definitely from the 1985 Willhire, the Carrolls Transport 2.3 16v Merc, finished 2nd with Mike Wilds co-driving.

GBRM · 5 Jul 2007, 09:37 (Ref:1954981)

I know this is a little off topic but as it was mentioned earlier in the thread I wanted to update those who had expressed an interest; I got a response from Peter Duke this morning reference a DVD on Dad. He was very complimentary about Dad and recalled a story of his father Geoff having a road race with Dad from the South of France to Calais, Geoff in an Alfa and Dad in a Magnum/Firenza and the fun they had!!
Anyway, he would love to do a DVD but does not think it will be possible due to copyright/financial issues. I will go back to him, as I am happy to trace the companies who have the copyright, as long as he primes me with the right questions to ask but if there is a cost too then it probably won't happen, I realise Duke have to make money too. Peter has said he will look into it further anyway though and I will update again as and when.

Back on topic, does anyone know why there were two production saloon championships; would it not have been better to have one all-encompassing championship with a joint sponsorship from Monroe and Uniroyal?

VIVA GT · 5 Jul 2007, 10:02 (Ref:1954995)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBRM

I know this is a little off topic but as it was mentioned earlier in the thread I wanted to update those who had expressed an interest; I got a response from Peter Duke this morning reference a DVD on Dad. He was very complimentary about Dad and recalled a story of his father Geoff having a road race with Dad from the South of France to Calais, Geoff in an Alfa and Dad in a Magnum/Firenza and the fun they had!!
Anyway, he would love to do a DVD but does not think it will be possible due to copyright/financial issues. I will go back to him, as I am happy to trace the companies who have the copyright, as long as he primes me with the right questions to ask but if there is a cost too then it probably won't happen, I realise Duke have to make money too. Peter has said he will look into it further anyway though and I will update again as and when.

Back on topic, does anyone know why there were two production saloon championships; would it not have been better to have one all-encompassing championship with a joint sponsorship from Monroe and Uniroyal?

Hi Gregor, I bet that was an interesting 'trip' with your Dad and Geoff Duke who was not only an accomplished motorcyclist, but sports car racer too. (Peter Duke is no mean driver himself, it must be in the genes, would you agree?).
Anyway, first to say that I hope you get the DVD sorted, I'll certainly purchase a copy.
As far as the Prodsaloon Championships question is concerned, IIRC the two championships were run by different organising clubs (BRSCC & BARC?) and were therefore in direct competition with each other. Luckily, back in those days there were enough competitors to provide a full field for both championships...

GBRM · 5 Jul 2007, 12:02 (Ref:1955095)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Hi Gregor, I bet that was an interesting 'trip' with your Dad and Geoff Duke who was not only an accomplished motorcyclist, but sports car racer too. (Peter Duke is no mean driver himself, it must be in the genes, would you agree?).
Anyway, first to say that I hope you get the DVD sorted, I'll certainly purchase a copy.
As far as the Prodsaloon Championships question is concerned, IIRC the two championships were run by different organising clubs (BRSCC & BARC?) and were therefore in direct competition with each other. Luckily, back in those days there were enough competitors to provide a full field for both championships...

I don;t think I want to imagine and as Peter points out he dreads to think what the French and Belgian police would have made of it, plus knowing Dad's time-keeping he would have been late for the boat back!!
From the stories Dad told me about Geoff he was a very good drvier, maybe as good as a rider and Dad certainly held him in high esteem. As for the genes I'm not quite in a position to comment I've certainly inherited the sideways gene so far, might need to get rid of that one though!! My Grandad was a very good race/rally driver too and one of Dad's brothers did quite a few races and still does some sprints successfully now, so I think there is definitely something there, probably to do with hand eye co-ordination as I'm pretty good at most sports (modest too, haha!!) and Dad was a very keen runner and ice-skater (yes, ice-skating!!), plus if you've grown up with it the some of your father's talents/vices/enthusiasm is bound to rub off on you.
Thanks for the DVD, hopefully it'll get done, just doesn't sound too promising at the moment.

That sounds about right, one of them was definitely BRSCC. It's amazing when you think about it, full grids for two championships, about 30 races a season, in nowadays money that's £7,000 just in entry fees, so when Dad was running 5 car teams that's £35,000 and that's without anything else, Jeez, now I do realise why he didn't want me to go into motor racing, that's more than I earn in a year!
What with tyres, fuel, mechanics, development, maintenance, you're probably looking at £50,000 plus I would think.

davyboy · 5 Jul 2007, 12:49 (Ref:1955136)

I figured that the copyright stuff would be an issue with the video... but let's keep our fingers crossed that it comes off. I'd definitely buy a copy and quite a few other people I know would buy one too.

GBRM · 5 Jul 2007, 13:06 (Ref:1955158)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

I figured that the copyright stuff would be an issue with the video... but let's keep our fingers crossed that it comes off. I'd definitely buy a copy and quite a few other people I know would buy one too.

Yeah, it's a cost thing too, as they can buy permission to use the footage but obviously it needs to be economically viable. I'll do some digging though, at least the seed has been sewn now and maybe if I can get a few people to agree to it they might see there is a big market for it, hopefully!!

**chunterer** · 5 Jul 2007, 14:08 (Ref:1955216)

Would be a nice DVD if it came off for sure.

There were even more than 2 prodsaloon series at one time as well i think?

I remember reading stuff about the 70's and there might have been 3 or 4??!! Imagine that?

In early 80's the Monroe and Uniroyal were pretty equal, but then as the mid 80's approached the Uniroyal series took precendence. Maybe Uniroyal lobbed out better prize money and trophies or something!

The Monroe series in '85 struggled to get entries past the 20 mark whereas Uniroyal was mustering at least 30 with several reserves!

I have a feeling that one of them may have been a BRDC supported series and the other a BRSCC or BARC version?

GBRM · 5 Jul 2007, 20:45 (Ref:1955573)

[quote=chunterer]Would be a nice DVD if it came off for sure.

There were even more than 2 prodsaloon series at one time as well i think?

I remember reading stuff about the 70's and there might have been 3 or 4??!! Imagine that?[quote]

I'm hoping the DVD will come off and to be fair Duke they have said they'd love it too, we'll just see what happens; otherwise I'll become a Del Boy!!

I'm not sure about more than 2 prod saloons; I think there was a lot of prod saloon and group 1/touring car cross-over.

There was definitely a lot of money in prod saloons from '85 onwards and you'll see from some of the other threads talking about Commordores, Rovers, BMWs there was crossover. I think back then each championship/club was headed by a strong person who kept it all under control, whereas these days people just seem to be going through the motions and ignoring what "we" all have to say and putting on a championship that no-one wants to see; I know Dad got exceedingly upset of being on the board of directors of this and that club.
Anyway, my membership of clubs/marshals will probably be rescindeded!

Gerard Hodges · 5 Jul 2007, 21:49 (Ref:1955632)

Quote:

Originally Posted by COLIN STUBBS

Really must pay a visit to the attic and get the programmes out,but invarably it takes hours once you start looking at em!!!

Hi Colin, Gregor Marshall suggested i contact you, i live in New Zealand and own the ex Barrie Williams Grp N production BMW 635 csi. I have restored the car and race it in historic events. I am desperatly trying to track its history and Gregor suggested you would be a good source for photos of the car, i would really appreciate any info/photos/results on this car.
Gerry hodges.
New Zealand.

KA · 6 Jul 2007, 09:08 (Ref:1955893)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

As far as the Prodsaloon Championships question is concerned, IIRC the two championships were run by different organising clubs (BRSCC & BARC?) and were therefore in direct competition with each other. Luckily, back in those days there were enough competitors to provide a full field for both championships...

As I remember, didn't quite a few people run in both?

**chunterer** · 6 Jul 2007, 09:23 (Ref:1955908)

Bloody hell, VIVA GT already mentjoned about which clubs ran what and then I completely ignored him and went and posted the same thing!!

Think I haven't been lying down in that dark room long enough!!

Most people did run in both that had the budgets to do it and and then some people who only really ran the Uniroyal did a few rounds of Monroe etc..

For example IIRC in 1985, people like Gerry, Skid, Tony L and then the smaller Asquith cars did both series in the main. People like Jess Yates didn't do a full season but I remember he came out later in the season with a new, white 2.8i. I have a feeling his metallic blue car got shunted early in the season or something.

Anyway point being there was a staple regular handful who managed to do both but as GBRM related to in earlier post, only if they could afford it!

GBRM · 6 Jul 2007, 10:23 (Ref:1955949)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

For example IIRC in 1985, people like Gerry, Skid, Tony L and then the smaller Asquith cars did both series in the main. People like Jess Yates didn't do a full season but I remember he came out later in the season with a new, white 2.8i. I have a feeling his metallic blue car got shunted early in the season or something.

I think that Jess bought Dad's old white Capri, as GMR had helped Jess with some prep stuff and they were great friends; Dad is/was the godfather to Jess's oldest daughter

Incidentally; Jess will be racing his lovely Chevron at the GP this weekend.

**chunterer** · 6 Jul 2007, 10:27 (Ref:1955954)

Great, thanks for the info, that makes sense as I think it has a dark coloured roof on it, black or blue?

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