GT2 replaced by GT3 ..... ACO new idea

[supercarS7]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The question is, Who wants a GT World Championship?

So you're saying we can't use the "if you build it, they will come" mentality?

Seriously, I don't think it's such a bad idea for a world championship as long as there are enough "someones" that want it. The key will be to buold a good sponsorship package. If the series really does become global and gets a good live TV package something similar to F1, I'd watch it; why not?

[JAG]

In the 80's the cars competing in Group C could win at Le Mans, that's a huge incentive to build a car for a World Championship.

These days overall winners compete in the LMS/ALMS, so thats were most money and interest is focused.

FIA GT is increasingly attracting smaller teams stepping up from national series, not big hitters likes Joest, Oreca etc.

Ambitious national teams like Rollcentre and Embassy are moving straight to the LMS and protoypes.

I wouldn't be suprised if Vitaphone moved on from the series and entered DTM or LMS when the MC12 deal is up, they appear to have outgrown the series.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by JAG

In the 80's the cars competing in Group C could win at Le Mans, that's a huge incentive to build a car for a World Championship.

These days overall winners compete in the LMS/ALMS, so thats were most money and interest is focused.

FIA GT is increasingly attracting smaller teams stepping up from national series, not big hitters likes Joest, Oreca etc.

Ambitious national teams like Rollcentre and Embassy are moving straight to the LMS and protoypes.

I wouldn't be suprised if Vitaphone moved on from the series and entered DTM or LMS when the MC12 deal is up, they appear to have outgrown the series.

Okay history lesson

CART was its own series and was connected to the Indy 500 and just how successful was CART in the mid to late 80's....

Why would companies want to invest in THAT????

You had GM (purpose built and stock blocks), Ford (via Cosworth), later Honda and Toyota. Benz replaced GM on the valve covers of the Ilmor engines, you had large fields and competitive racing with at peak 3 chassis manufactures.

CART was fine for the most part, Tony George wanted to see more American drivers. Okay but American drivers didn't have backing of major companies as personal sponsors as the Brazilians did, so people like Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon tested but because they didn't bring money with them, didn't get offered top line drives.

So George used the equity in the Indy 500 to start his series and thus MESSED UP OPEN WHEEL FOR everybody especially THE FANS! Years later, what do you have IRL dominated by South Americans and Europeans, Hornish is but a blip basically and not talented enough to be offered a F1 ride - I rest my case.

ACO is pulling a "Tony George" where they are offering the same product in the same market and shrinking grids in both series in the process. Ratel has made changes to HIS series to allow this teams to be rewarded with a entry in to the 24hr race. ACO is using the 24hrs race as the "Carrot" for teams to run in their series.

Ratel in his defense, is saying okay we're going to us GT3 as the basis for a new GT1/GT2 class with smaller displacement cars in GT2 (makes SENSE, remember GTU??) and those with larger displacements in GT1 (ala GTO) and leaving GT3 as a privateer class for non professionals.

Reducing cost overall and of course this PLEASES the FIA which in turn will give Ratel another shot at a World Championship series, which save for Benz outspending everybody was (especially in 1997) was very successful and very competitive.

ACO wants a reduction in cost as well, why not go with what Ratel has proposed, stop trying to reinvent the wheel just because the IDEA isn't YOURS originally.

An FIA World GT Championship would be welcomed as it offers exposure over what are largely regional series now.

It has 45-47 entires on average in 1997, so YES you build it they will COME.

You had good racing up and down the grid, unlike now where "The Lion" dominates even when one car fails. Now Audi has been humbled but the ACO doesn't like that and rather have the Intersports and Dysons of the world in that class and Porsche and Honda trying to compete with Audi's cubic dollars, which they will as soon as the oil-burners are reigned in a bit.

Nobody said the FIA Championship would interfere with the ALMS or LMS as it wouldn't. I believe the FIA will stick with production cars because it has lasted over 10 years in that format.

But ALMS and LMS should allow breaks to let teams compete in the FIA when it comes to town (in case of the ALMS specifically), it would just produce better racing, better for the FANS.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

But ALMS and LMS should allow breaks to let teams compete in the FIA when it comes to town (in case of the ALMS specifically), it would just produce better racing, better for the FANS.

We wont see FIA or SRO racings in North America.

GT3 racing in NA is IMSA Porcsche Cup GT3 racing.

The the US and Canada have

ALMS - GT1 GT2
Grand AM - GT and Koni Challange
SCCA Pro- Speed World Challange - GT and Touring
IMSA GT3
SCCA - T1, T2, SU, SPO, BP
NASA - ST1, ST2, SU
PBOC
Viper Racing League
?? Sorry Do not know what else there is in Canada

[supercarS7]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

We wont see FIA or SRO racings in North America.

Why would you be so sure of that? If this happens the way they want it to happen w/ manufacturers involved, why wouldn't they come? The US is the most important market for most of those brands of cars and the ones that don't sell here probably should. I guess I am speaking more specifically of the US since I'm familiar w/ Canadian car sales.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by supercarS7

Why would you be so sure of that? If this happens the way they want it to happen w/ manufacturers involved, why wouldn't they come? The US is the most important market for most of those brands of cars and the ones that don't sell here probably should. I guess I am speaking more specifically of the US since I'm familiar w/ Canadian car sales.

Marketing and car sales yes. That is where ALMS GT2 comes in.

Grand Am is attempting to persuade SRO and FIA GT racing. However, those GT cars are MUCH faster then the current and proposed DP cars.

Otherwise who would promote the races? IMSA ?? SCCA-PRO in World Challenge format?

[supercarS7]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Marketing and car sales yes. That is where ALMS GT2 comes in.

Grand Am is attempting to persuade SRO and FIA GT racing. However, those GT cars are MUCH faster then the current and proposed DP cars.

Otherwise who would promote the races? IMSA ?? SCCA-PRO in World Challenge format?

Why wouldn't SRO set up an office in NA to promote any potential NA rounds?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by supercarS7

Why wouldn't SRO set up an office in NA to promote any potential NA rounds?

He could do what ever he wants. It would take a BIG BIG sponsor, to pay for track rental and the events promotion. Tracks will not fall all over someone without payment in advance.

Splitting gate reciepts will get him laughed at. Oh Gate recipets go to the tracks too, not the promotor.

Teams wont pay for it.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by supercarS7

Why wouldn't SRO set up an office in NA to promote any potential NA rounds?

He could do what ever he wants. It would take a BIG BIG sponsor, to pay for track rental and the events promotion. Tracks will not fall all over someone without payment in advance.

I am not sure of Canadian rules. Although (at least in my mind) I consider NA to be one body when it comes to racing per se. In the States there is the huge hurdle of ACCUS, FIA > Automobile Competition Committee for the United States, FIA. Which you will find a descriptive of in the IMSA Code 2007 Regs. Article 1.2 link

L.P.

[Graham Goodwin]

I think its fair to say that at least one poster here believes the hype - My view is simply expressed thus.

Production based GTs are fine - If you are going to build a World Championship around them you need to take account of the following:

A World championship is a non starter without promotion and support from manufacturers

The major factories currently involved in GT racing have made it very clear they don't support the creation of a World championship as outlined by SRO

Amongst all of the market sectors high end sports/ GT cars have the fastest level of turnover for new models (stands to reason - they are marketed to those most able to afford a regular luxury purchase). The life of a manufacturer- backed racing version is therefore likely to be short.

Manufacturer interest in a GT racing championship (if indeed there is any in this format) will be directly proportionate to the success in competition of their car - Think not? Ask anyone running a Porsche in FIA GT3 what they think!

The problem here is that some fans are seduced by the prospect of huge grids in terms of numbers and variety - Firstly the proposal as currently drafted effectively slashes the potential variety in half, secondly, unless there is a real reduction in cost there is little or no prospect of growth.

GT3 has been a success - but there are still major issues. The FIA GT3 Championship has large grids (but take note that many of the races are rather less well populated than the entry lists suggest).

To say the least there are plenty of background voices amongst those currently involved in FIA GT who are unhappy both with the current format and the proposals for the future.

This isn't (in my mind at least) SRO/FIA vs ACO - It's about what's good and sensible for the sport. This range of proposals has some merit in some areas but for my taste the World Championship idea, the proposal for shorter races and the further dumbing down of the technical aspects are all going too far, too fast and with little or no evidence of support from current and potential future competitors.

In answer to the 1997 point - Back then we had manufacturer support from Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Lotus and Chrysler plus some smaller factories - I don't see any prospect whatsoever of that level of factory support for this format.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Okay history lesson

CART was its own series and was connected to the Indy 500 and just how successful was CART in the mid to late 80's....

Why would companies want to invest in THAT????

You had GM (purpose built and stock blocks), Ford (via Cosworth), later Honda and Toyota. Benz replaced GM on the valve covers of the Ilmor engines, you had large fields and competitive racing with at peak 3 chassis manufactures.

CART was fine for the most part, Tony George wanted to see more American drivers. Okay but American drivers didn't have backing of major companies as personal sponsors as the Brazilians did, so people like Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon tested but because they didn't bring money with them, didn't get offered top line drives.

So George used the equity in the Indy 500 to start his series and thus MESSED UP OPEN WHEEL FOR everybody especially THE FANS! Years later, what do you have IRL dominated by South Americans and Europeans, Hornish is but a blip basically and not talented enough to be offered a F1 ride - I rest my case.

ACO is pulling a "Tony George" where they are offering the same product in the same market and shrinking grids in both series in the process. Ratel has made changes to HIS series to allow this teams to be rewarded with a entry in to the 24hr race. ACO is using the 24hrs race as the "Carrot" for teams to run in their series.

Ratel in his defense, is saying okay we're going to us GT3 as the basis for a new GT1/GT2 class with smaller displacement cars in GT2 (makes SENSE, remember GTU??) and those with larger displacements in GT1 (ala GTO) and leaving GT3 as a privateer class for non professionals.

Reducing cost overall and of course this PLEASES the FIA which in turn will give Ratel another shot at a World Championship series, which save for Benz outspending everybody was (especially in 1997) was very successful and very competitive.

ACO wants a reduction in cost as well, why not go with what Ratel has proposed, stop trying to reinvent the wheel just because the IDEA isn't YOURS originally.

An FIA World GT Championship would be welcomed as it offers exposure over what are largely regional series now.

It has 45-47 entires on average in 1997, so YES you build it they will COME.

You had good racing up and down the grid, unlike now where "The Lion" dominates even when one car fails. Now Audi has been humbled but the ACO doesn't like that and rather have the Intersports and Dysons of the world in that class and Porsche and Honda trying to compete with Audi's cubic dollars, which they will as soon as the oil-burners are reigned in a bit.

Nobody said the FIA Championship would interfere with the ALMS or LMS as it wouldn't. I believe the FIA will stick with production cars because it has lasted over 10 years in that format.

But ALMS and LMS should allow breaks to let teams compete in the FIA when it comes to town (in case of the ALMS specifically), it would just produce better racing, better for the FANS.

The ACO IS sportscar racing.

Manufactuers will spend more money to win Le Mans than any championship.

The ideal scenario is to use ACO regs in International series (LMS/ALMS) and watch these great cars season long.

A standalone FIA GT series loses out to manufacturer backed series like DTM/WTCC on one hand, and privateer friendly Euro GT, Belcar etc on the other.

Thats without even factoring in LMS/ALMS were the big sportscar money is invested.

FIA GT in 97 was one good season of racing with cars that could compete for overall wins at Le Mans. The year after grids halved, Mercedes won 10/10, and there wasn't any prospect of new GT1 cars, as these manufacturers focused on Le Mans with ACO cars.

Thats when the ALMS came on the scene.

The very reason teams will not abandon the LMS, even after Peugeot dominance, is Le Mans, the draws too big, it's established, and teams/manufactuers have confidence the ACO will work things out for the good of sportscar racing.

The FIA's baby is F1, they will not go the extra mile needed to ensure a 'rival' series prospers.

Just look at Group C, 97/98 FIA GT and recently a booming WRC, all left to fail.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I am not sure of Canadian rules. Although (at least in my mind) I consider NA to be one body when it comes to racing per se. In the States there is the huge hurdle of ACCUS, FIA > Automobile Competition Committee for the United States, FIA. Which you will find a descriptive of in the IMSA Code 2007 Regs. Article 1.2 link

L.P.

Yes Horndawg That says it right there the SRO cound NOT come over to the US to set up racing. IMSA has the sole contol and FIA has given IMSA that control.

[Mal]

Also back in 97 there was nowhere else for teams to race outside le mans. I remember manufacturers moaning that they had to build cars for just one race (but they still did it) What the ACO has done is create a number of series around the world for ACO regs cars to race in. This is whats leading to the re emegence of manufacturer interest in sportscar racing. ALMS are now regularly getting good crowds and good TV figures in just the demographic profile that the manufacturers of High end sportscars want. LMS in time will hopefully do the same thing if the ACO take a few lessons from IMSA as to how to run a good race weekend for the fans.

Silverstone may not have had a massive crowd, but if you looked around the car parks at the number of high end sportscars that were there you would realise that it is appealing to the right type of spectator - the quality and not quantity argument.

Why the FIA wants to mess this up is beyond me. Surely the FIA and ACO should have sat down before any announcements were made thrashed out a joint set of rules and made a joint announcement. Far too logical I suppose and too many egos involved.

[supercarS7]

Gigawave to run a FIA GT1 Aston in the last race this year and full season next. Clearly something needs to be done about GT1, but it is ironic how every time we complain about GT1 yet another team comes into the fold.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Mal

Also back in 97 there was nowhere else for teams to race outside le mans. I remember manufacturers moaning that they had to build cars for just one race (but they still did it) What the ACO has done is create a number of series around the world for ACO regs cars to race in. This is whats leading to the re emegence of manufacturer interest in sportscar racing. ALMS are now regularly getting good crowds and good TV figures in just the demographic profile that the manufacturers of High end sportscars want. LMS in time will hopefully do the same thing if the ACO take a few lessons from IMSA as to how to run a good race weekend for the fans.

Silverstone may not have had a massive crowd, but if you looked around the car parks at the number of high end sportscars that were there you would realise that it is appealing to the right type of spectator - the quality and not quantity argument.

Why the FIA wants to mess this up is beyond me. Surely the FIA and ACO should have sat down before any announcements were made thrashed out a joint set of rules and made a joint announcement. Far too logical I suppose and too many egos involved.

Well it would not be the first time FIA has mucked up Sport Car racing! It will not hurt FIA's intellectually challenged board in the least if Sports Car racing is degraded in all of this. Just my opinion of course!

L.P.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by supercarS7

Gigawave to run a FIA GT1 Aston in the last race this year and full season next. Clearly something needs to be done about GT1, but it is ironic how every time we complain about GT1 yet another team comes into the fold.

Fair point but it just supports one of the arguments out there - This announcement has been brewinfg for a fair while and Gigawave are a very welcome addition but they are running a now third hand Aston Martin that another team found it impossible to attract backing for for a full season.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Mal

Why the FIA wants to mess this up is beyond me. Surely the FIA and ACO should have sat down before any announcements were made thrashed out a joint set of rules and made a joint announcement. Far too logical I suppose and too many egos involved.

Don't think it works that way. When the FIA addapts the ACO rules, THEN they might be a joint ( but not likely) statement.

The ACO has the LM24. That is THE sports car race and THE sports car MARKETING tool. All the manufactures know this, the sports car world knows this. Only the FIA and SRO does not GET IT.

PS
Egos? why name a race series after its creator SRO, that is ego.

[TWK]

I believe that SRO is the name of the promoter organization and not the name of a series. Niether is IMSA the name of a race series, nor PMSG. There are equivalent roles there.

[The Real DMN]

As far as I understand it, the SRO runs both the LMS and the FIA GT on behalf on the ACO and FIA.

[JAG]

With news of GM, Dodge and Ford having cars homologated for GT2 by the ACO, I guess this means the class will have a long term future at Le Mans, and even more likely GT1 will kick the bucket, and maybe not be replaced.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

With news of GM, Dodge and Ford having cars homologated for GT2 by the ACO, I guess this means the class will have a long term future at Le Mans, and even more likely GT1 will kick the bucket, and maybe not be replaced.

GT2 will have a long history in ACO. GT1 has some newcomers for 2008. It is my believe that GT1 will also have a long history. GT1 is for Manufactures / Works teams.

The FIA & SRO may change their designation, but I drought the ACO will.

Does this mean that FIA and SRO will become <koff> Second tier GT racing? ( ouch )

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

With news of GM, Dodge and Ford having cars homologated for GT2 by the ACO, I guess this means the class will have a long term future at Le Mans, and even more likely GT1 will kick the bucket, and maybe not be replaced.

If GT-1 does go away (in its current form) then it will be replaced I believe. I do not see a single class of GT and as said by S.Atherton the ALMS does not see a single class of GT either as the ALMS is commited to the 4 classes of ACO racing! From Athertons mouth, which would lead me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that the ACO has no plans of changing their structure either.

L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

With news of GM, Dodge and Ford having cars homologated for GT2 by the ACO, I guess this means the class will have a long term future at Le Mans, and even more likely GT1 will kick the bucket, and maybe not be replaced.

If GT-1 does go away (in its current form) then it will be replaced I believe. I do not see a single class of GT and as said by S.Atherton the ALMS does not see a single class of GT either as the ALMS is commited to the 4 classes of ACO racing! From Athertons mouth, which would lead me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that the ACO has no plans of changing their structure either.
L.P.

From the interview with SR after the Avon Equalisation Test at Donington Park yesterday it would seem that the class structure in FIA will still be the same as the current ACO / FIA compatible model. With a much more equitable tone towards everyone involved. @DSC

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

From the interview with SR after the Avon Equalisation Test at Donington Park yesterday it would seem that the class structure in FIA will still be the same as the current ACO / FIA compatible model. With a much more equitable tone towards everyone involved. @DSC

L.P.

Reading between the lines, does this mean the ACO would not Budge and the FIA & SRO did not want to loose face, agreed to keep rules along the ACO lines and they kissed, huged and made up??

[JAG]

Also seems manufactuer led.

It basically appears that GT1 will now be based on modified GT2 regs, rather than GT3.

Will GT2 remain as is, save for a little cost reduction?