Rosberg vs Hamilton

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

What did Hamilton do that merited those comments there, bauble? It sounds a bit like unwarranted bashing. Is he really just another GP driver? How so?

It was a pretty Ham-handed demonstration of how to race a car that was half a second faster than anything else on the track!

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought it was Rosberg's move that was rash, he chopped right in front of Ricciardo and there was nowhere for Ricciardo to go.

Ricciardo did the difficult part, he got past Rosberg without making contact. Rosberg got a faster exit out of the corner but all Ricciardo did was drive in a straight line - Rosberg, knowing he couldn't afford to let the Red Bull take the inside line into Turn 2, tried to squeeze him out but misjudged it.

Racing room wasn't given. Just like Hamilton's, it was by no means intentional, but it was by all means avoidable. I felt it was inconsistent from the stewards.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by wnut

It was a pretty Ham-handed demonstration of how to race a car that was half a second faster than anything else on the track!

In a 19 race season, how often do you see Hamilton race like that?

Every driver has a messy race. Hamilton just like any other great driver has them every now and again, but it only seems to be with him that the reputation sticks.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Ricciardo did the difficult part, he got past Rosberg without making contact. Rosberg got a faster exit out of the corner but all Ricciardo did was drive in a straight line - Rosberg, knowing he couldn't afford to let the Red Bull take the inside line into Turn 2, tried to squeeze him out but misjudged it.

Racing room wasn't given. Just like Hamilton's, it was by no means intentional, but it was by all means avoidable. I felt it was inconsistent from the stewards.

LH did lock up though so to me that was clearly his error.

the DR/NR one i agree with you. all race there looked to be two separate lines drivers were using. yes some of it was 'dive bombing' but always an attempt to set up for turn 2. i feel as though NR saw that DR was doing and just misjudged it a bit when closing him down...racing incident there i thought so glad there was no penalty.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

In a 19 race season, how often do you see Hamilton race like that?

Every driver has a messy race. Hamilton just like any other great driver has them every now and again, but it only seems to be with him that the reputation sticks.

Hamilton is very quick, and very good, I think the reputation of screwing up sticks to a certain extent because he does try so hard and when he screws up a lot of people refuse to acknowledge that he has had a bad day and try to defend the indefensible which leads to a long dragged out and unnecessary debate.

He does make a lot of contact with other people, but that is hard racing and part of his push on attitude, some of those contacts are bound to be his fault despite what his supporters think.

Is there a comparative collision statistic anywhere?

[Paradise City]

Hamilton is one of these highly intuitive talents but the thing is with highly intuitive talents is that when they get frustrated, they can get erratic. I rate him. But his temperament isn't cast-iron and he had a bad day today.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Hamilton is one of these highly intuitive talents but the thing is with highly intuitive talents is that when they get frustrated, they can get erratic. I rate him. But his temperament isn't cast-iron and he had a bad day today.

I think LH seems to have some sort of sense of 'entitlement' to be winning or in the lead, hence some of the immediate rash moves to regain the position despite having such a clear car advantage that the race will come to him.

This sense of entitlement seems to be an increasing thing in F1, we see it with Red Bull and their reaction to Renault and their results this year. It is probably behind a lot of the intransigence we see with the strategy working group.

I have no doubt this determination and drive is what makes champions, although to be fair to Lewis he did put his hands up and apologies to Mercedes for his performance, but after the look on his face at Monaco I guess he had to...

[S griffin]

Hamilton is one of those drivers who races with their hearts on their sleeve. Because of that we'll see them emotional at times. He certainly gives it his all and I wouldn't want it any other way

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I think LH seems to have some sort of sense of 'entitlement' to be winning or in the lead, hence some of the immediate rash moves to regain the position despite having such a clear car advantage that the race will come to him.

This sense of entitlement seems to be an increasing thing in F1, we see it with Red Bull and their reaction to Renault and their results this year. It is probably behind a lot of the intransigence we see with the strategy working group.

I have no doubt this determination and drive is what makes champions, although to be fair to Lewis he did put his hands up and apologies to Mercedes for his performance, but after the look on his face at Monaco I guess he had to...

Best time to retake a position is straight after you have lost it. Leaving it a couple of laps doesn't work as well as the guy in front is ready for you. He's not so ready straight after a pass, because he may be compromised in some way due to the overtake.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by bauble

I have said it before that I just do not like the guy, it's a personal thing, not my type (of driver I hasten to add.).

On too many occasions he has shown a lack of judgement when his overtaken or out smarted, he 'fights back immediately' as commentators would put it, but at Silverstone when out dragged by Massa he was off the track and endangering both of their races in his desperation to regain the lead. Again we saw it today as he was across the gravel attempting another ill judge move on Rosberg.
It is my thought that he gets angry as if it was an insult, and his pride takes over his common sense. There have been many such incidents in his career.

I readily acknowledge that he is fast, and has great talent, but so have many others, and you don't see Alonso or Vettel acting rashly.

He is World Champion because of the car, he was not World Champion in 2010, 11,12,13. Why because he did not have a car advantage, a problem most of his rivals have, so for me he has not proved worthy to stand along side Fangio, Prost, Stewart, Lauda, or Schumacher.

But then I just can't stand ........!

When you get to close to 80 years, you will probably be saying that Umbopo Mattaluyasi is not half the driver that Hamilton chap was back in the 2000's.

I would hope that people would disagree but not take offence at what is simply;

MY OPINION.

Cheers, All,

Bauble.

I would agree that he can be too rash when fighting back immediately, but he's by and large reigned that in.

Re: other drivers, we have seen Alonso act rashly before. And regarding the best car, all drivers who win championships have one of the best cars. Fangio, Schumacher et al.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Re: other drivers, we have seen Alonso act rashly before. And regarding the best car, all drivers who win championships have one of the best cars. Fangio, Schumacher et al.

Name a champion; practically all of them have had a ruthless streak, some wider than others. I can think of countless times that 'the greats' have behaved in a way that's seen someone run off the road, shoved aside, hindered, crashed into, blocked, forced to change line etc etc. We collectively hold these as cherished memories of a time when things were 'different', they make looking back at times past a joy to do.

Racers will race, sometimes they'll let the red mist descend and occasionally screw up as a result. It's what makes racing racing.

The principal difference between now and 'then' (for whenever 'then' is, some have longer memories ) is that now we can chat to a bazillion people about it as it happens rather than having to wait until pay day for a trip down to the pub. Opinions, we've all got one, but we can express them immediately without reflection - and that's not always a good thing!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Greem

Name a champion; practically all of them have had a ruthless streak, some wider than others. I can think of countless times that 'the greats' have behaved in a way that's seen someone run off the road, shoved aside, hindered, crashed into, blocked, forced to change line etc etc. We collectively hold these as cherished memories of a time when things were 'different', they make looking back at times past a joy to do.

Racers will race, sometimes they'll let the red mist descend and occasionally screw up as a result. It's what makes racing racing.

The principal difference between now and 'then' (for whenever 'then' is, some have longer memories ) is that now we can chat to a bazillion people about it as it happens rather than having to wait until pay day for a trip down to the pub. Opinions, we've all got one, but we can express them immediately without reflection - and that's not always a good thing!

In his day Juan Manuel Fangio was admired, respected, and revered by all of his rivals. He was a gentleman on and off track. Jackie Stewart was also a proper gent, and I do not remember anyone complaining about Jimmy Clark, or indeed Alain Prost.

It was probably Ayrton Senna who introduced the current attitude of 'anything goes'.

Of course it a generational thing, for me Fangio will always be on the top step of the 'Greatest Ever' podium, while Lewis Hamilton, for me (I emphasise FOR ME) is not worthy to even look on.

The younger you are the more Lewis will appeal.

And while not claiming any level of intimacy, I have spoken to both of them.

As always feel free to disagree, and I promise to respect your point of view.

[chillibowl]

In all honesty, I have no idea what you mean by 'proper gent'.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

In all honesty, I have no idea what you mean by 'proper gent'.

I know what bauble means by a proper gent. Out of the current crop of drivers, I would say Jenson Button fits the description perfectly.

[chillibowl]

Maybe he is today, and today I agree he is, but JB wasn't always the most stand up guy either....professional context regarding former Willaims contract disputes.

Every driver, every competitive person, has examples in their life where personal gain is pursued at the expense of good manners or proper or behaviour...where they act like the person on the road ahead of them needs to be shoved out of the way.

Anyways back in the day a team running customer engines would have told their drivers to get out of the way for the folowing works driver and neither Williams driver was actually racing the Mercs this weekend...they should have saved their cars and moved out of the way so I think these are bad examples of of LHs bad behaviour.

So we are left with two Merc drivers having run ins with DR, so my question as always to bauble is why does NR get a pass and LH your anger?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bauble

In his day Juan Manuel Fangio was admired, respected, and revered by all of his rivals. He was a gentleman on and off track.

He also terrified his competitors out of the way - he didn't need to force them, because his presence was so huge (and persona, although gentlemanly, was commanding from what I've read) that they automatically moved. A subtle, successful, form of bullying. Gentle, granted, but still.

Originally Posted by bauble

It was probably Ayrton Senna who introduced the current attitude of 'anything goes'.

Refined, perhaps. Certainly popularised, with his career rise being made in parallel with an increase in live worldwide TV coverage.

I certainly don't dispute Fangio (and the others you mention) sitting in the pantheon of greats, but it is *impossible* to objectively compare drivers from any era against drivers from another. The risks & chances taken by drivers 30 or more years ago were (shall we say) significantly more visceral than those taken today, but we've recently seen that some risks taken today can have the ultimate consequence.

[bauble]

[
So we are left with two Merc drivers having run ins with DR, so my question as always to bauble is why does NR get a pass and LH your anger?[/QUOTE]

The difference is that in my view Ricciardo was in the wrong in the Nico incident, I suspect that Daniel is very popular and Nico not particularly so, therefore most blame the Merc driver. Lewis was clearly in the wrong when he collided with the Red Bull. That for me is what separates the two events.

When reading any of my posts in this particular section of the forum, always bear in mind that I do not like Lewis at all and readily admit to being biased against him. Yes! He is a good driver, fast and committed, admirable qualities, but I cannot stomach the whole Lewis Hamilton. Sorry, but that is just the way it is.

It is best to be upfront in these matters, so that others may weigh my view in the balance, when replying.

[spider]

It was a racing incident, just as Spa was last year. Lewis and Nico were both clumsy then, and Daniel in my opinion didn't do a lot wrong, and Nico just misjudged it.

Lewis had a horrid race - and I'm glad he did, as I wouldn't have liked him to be dedicating a victory to Jules - Seb, Danil and Dan all clearly knew him and were movingly classy in their dedications to JB. Yet, he came out extending his lead over Nico - and as has been the case for season's now, Lewis is comfortably the faster driver. I see Nico as a Patrese/Berger/Coulthard/Ralf Schumacher level driver - good, but not top-top line.

To me he is too incident prone to be considered as well-rounded as someone like a Prost. I think a lot of it, as he alluded to, is concentration issues. He's too erratic under pressure for my liking, but he can afford to relax a little as Nico simply isn't on his level and will never be.

He will win the title again easily, because even when Nico has a great opportunity to take a chunk out of his lead like yesterday, he can't capitalise.

For me I want them to hurry up that Pascal's development and get him alongside Lewis - as he looks like he could ruffle his feathers a little.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bauble

The difference is that in my view Ricciardo was in the wrong in the Nico incident, I suspect that Daniel is very popular and Nico not particularly so, therefore most blame the Merc driver. Lewis was clearly in the wrong when he collided with the Red Bull. That for me is what separates the two events.

agree that LH was 100% at fault there. he locked up and lost control of his vehicle where as i think both DR and NR share fault for their contact.

i suspect if anything people want to give Ricciadro the benefit of the doubt because he actually looked like he was trying to win a race where as NR was acting far too conservatively (opting for the harder compound for the last stint for example)...i think people want to give the benefit of the doubt to the the one who looks more the racer (whatever that means of course).

i suspect that that attitude hasnt changed much over the years. you have your ideals of what makes a racer and i have mine.

also agree with Greem...media changed all of this and Senna being one of the first to break through during the beginning of the global media/internet age made him the first one perceived as 'ruthless' or 'selfish' simply because he was just the first one to have the modern spotlight thrown on him.

LH is as much a victim of his era as he has benefited from it so maybe it all just washes each other out in the end.

like these discussions though...great races make this place a lot more fun

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Maybe he is today, and today I agree he is, but JB wasn't always the most stand up guy either....professional context regarding former Willaims contract disputes.

The intricacies of F1 contracts are a minefield at the best of times but that's never detracted from his sporting conduct on or off the track.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The intricacies of F1 contracts are a minefield at the best of times but that's never detracted from his sporting conduct on or off the track.

again i suppose this comes down to what a 'proper gent' is.

for some fighting about money is far more unseemly then fighting your adversaries on the field of battle.

its neither here nor there, but when people talk about being a 'gentleman' i think of the hypocrisy of entitlement, landed gentry, and the erroneous notion that being a gentleman makes ones action more noble or respectable.

we all have our biases so its fair to say i carry some cultural and historical baggage in this department and why i take exception to that description.

[bauble]

A gentleman always says 'please' and 'thank you', he offers his seat to a lady, and treats every woman as a lady regardless. He is never pushy, he is well mannered, and refrains from coarse language in polite company.

He knows which knife and fork to use and when dining out, wears a tie with his shirt, never wears a hat indoors, always has shiny shoes, and if meeting you with a friend will shake his hand and say it is nice to meet you.

A gentleman will never display his tattoos in public, knows how to dress for the Royal Box at Wimbledon, and never, never sulks at disappointment.


I hope this helps a little.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

again i suppose this comes down to what a 'proper gent' is.

for some fighting about money is far more unseemly then fighting your adversaries on the field of battle.

its neither here nor there, but when people talk about being a 'gentleman' i think of the hypocrisy of entitlement, landed gentry, and the erroneous notion that being a gentleman makes ones action more noble or respectable.

we all have our biases so its fair to say i carry some cultural and historical baggage in this department and why i take exception to that description.

Iirc, it cost Button about £17m to get out of that Williams contract and stay with BAR.

I understand what you say about the hypocrisy of entitlement, landed gentry, and the erroneous notion that being a gentleman makes one's action more noble or respectable. Having lived over here for sometime now, there are those people who seem to rise above all that.

Anyway back to Rosberg and Hamilton. Not the best race for either. I just wonder how much having the initial start waived off played a factor in the Ferraris getting the better of them, once the race did start?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bauble

A gentleman always says 'please' and 'thank you'...

the robber said 'please and thank you' while robbing me. i couldnt help but say to myself what a proper gentleman.

needless to say that didnt help and i still remain unconvinced that is root reason for your dislike of LH but i think we can save that discussion for the next time LH does something to spark your ire.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Anyway back to Rosberg and Hamilton. Not the best race for either. I just wonder how much having the initial start waived off played a factor in the Ferraris getting the better of them, once the race did start?

indeed.

yeah they both had problems at the start, second race in a row now for that....larger problem?

LH showed rust when not running out in front. he was sloppy in his attempt to get back only to throw it all away a few times and was only saved by NR throwing it all away later on.

more should also be said about what Merc were thinking with NR's final pit stop. the only rational i can think of is that NR was more concerned with covering LH who was also on the harder compound more than he was with challenging SV for the win.

if he had the softs on i doubt DR would have got close to him. but he didnt though and with a number of laps left im surprised that he even risked a fight for that corner with DR as surely DR would have had him soon after. in hindsight i would think he would take that back as well.

but all that aside, the Merc of NR was just not able to make up that gap on the Ferrari's even during the first stint which by itself really did surprise me.

[bauble]

Chilli, many thanks for your courteous reply, Lewis drove a near faultless race, as far as I am concerned, I have made it clear over many posts that he is just not my 'cup of tea'. His whole persona grates, and I find the adulation he attracts from the media, and the 'fans' symptomatic of what is wrong with Formula 1 today!

Dear friend I beg you to understand that as one grows in to one's dotage, tolerance of the modern world becomes difficult, people walking around supermarkets with a mobile phone stuck to their ear, younger acquaintances sending me texts which I never know how to read. World Formula 1 Champions appearing almost daily in the Celebrity pages of the tabloids. I realise that I do not belong in this era of Grands Prix racing, but like a drug is hard to give up.

The best thing to do is read my replies and nod sagely and say; "Poor old Bauble, his mind's gone you know."

That's what John Turner does!