[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Maybe Rebellion want to run a prototype in the top class, as their first option no matter what.

That's certainly my understanding.

[GT6]

No i can't see them wanting to step down a class or two, they are happy in LMP1 and with the exception of le mans doing quite well this year

[Deleted]

They have two goals.
A) To be part of -quaranteed- grid at Le Mans
B) Be in hunt for overall glory - not necessarily in WEC but overall anywhere... but the lamo rulings of modern ELMS and IMSA are preventing that unless they go P2 of course

Originally Posted by Hayden on S365 last Fall

“It’s [North America] a place we’ve enjoyed some success in the past and we’ve enjoyed racing over there. I know the shape of the series has changed a bit since the merger. It’s hard to say that it’s quite the same as it was but nonetheless, you’re still racing at those big events like Daytona, Sebring, etc. You would be racing for the overall win, so there’s definitely an appeal there. I think it’s not out of the question in ’17 that we could be looking to go that way. If you went with a new 2017 car in the U.S., you’d obviously want to try to bring it to Le Mans if you could. For us, Le Mans is the big jewel in the crown, as it is for most people. We’d like to try to find a way to be a part of that for as long as possible. Whether we’d elect to go down the route of a European compatible P2 and have that we could run in ELMS or other categories… I don’t know. I think it’s a bit further away. We haven’t thought too hard about it yet."

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Pretty sure I recently heard Bart Hayden mention GTs as a possibility for Rebellion, but I can't remember where.

If there is a GT1 class somewhere out there where he can race alone and get some podiums... I am sure he may join.

I used to have an open mind, but my brains kept falling out.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Juntos

If there is a GT1 class somewhere out there where he can race alone and get some podiums... I am sure he may join.

I used to have an open mind, but my brains kept falling out.

Ah, so it's Rebellions fault that nobody else wants to play. Silly me, I thought it was the ACOs responsibility to fill the grid, not Barts. Someone should tell him he should fund other teams just to get them in.

[TheMightyM]

Rebellion’s future in LMP1 very much in doubt. Per S365:

Rebellion Racing’s future remains unclear, amid rumors of the team’s imminent departure from the LMP1 Privateer class of the FIA World Endurance Championship. (En Français)

Team manager Bart Hayden wouldn’t confirm or deny reports that the Anglo-Swiss squad could be pulling the plug on its LMP1 Privateer program, possibly even before the end of the year, amid growing concerns over the future of the prototype subclass.

“Everything is a rumor and we cannot prevent rumors from circulating,” Hayden told Endurance-Info. “We will know more by Mexico but I have no idea on what we will do in 2017.”

Hayden said there are multiple options for next year, from pulling out of LMP1 to moving to the European Le Mans Series in LMP2 or even mounting a partial-season Prototype class effort in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship.

[TF110]

They say they don't know their future plans a lot.

[Deleted]

How about running Oreca 05s in ELMS and bring the LMP1 only for LM.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Chiana

How about running Oreca 05s in ELMS and bring the LMP1 only for LM.

Not sure that makes much sense. You still have the substantial cost of upgrading the LMP1 cars to the 2017 spec plus the cost of new 2017-spec LMP2 cars. The only savings/additional revenues would come from the shorter ELMS season plus being able to sell a seat to a silver or bronze driver.

[chernaudi]

My appraisal from the WEC thread (I actually thought I was posting it here initially):

"The fact that the ACO are looking at making so many stop gap changes for '17 just a season prior to when everyone will pretty much need new cars to comply with changing technical regs is probably what's discouraging Rebellion, and it seems that they think they might be better off taking a wait and see approach and come back to LMP1 in 2018.

That's if they decide to do something else for 2017. IMSA might be their best choice, but even that might be tough for them to commit to for a season. In the LMS, they'll have to buy new tubs from Oreca, and get rid of or bench a couple of their gold or platinum drivers. In IMSA, they might be able to get a waiver/fudge though with the fact that the R-One and the Oreca 05/07 are clearly very closely related, but there's the difficulty with their bases in Switzerland and the UK and having to run across the Atlantic. That'd be taxing to do for the NAEC, let alone a full season unless they rent a shop in the US, which is how they ran some ALMS races in 2013."

[Coach Ep]

I'm sure they could run a potential NA campaign out of Oreca's US headquarters in Charlotte, NC

[hondafan37]

The article of endurance-info is a bit more detailed than sportscar365
Bart Hayden showed special concern for the increasing performance in order or 3 to 4 seconds of the LMP2 in 2017, He knows that with the new aerodynamic regulations and weight reduction can be obtained some performance but this new aerodynamics package will require additional financial resources.
Another concern is the engine, JUDD and Gibson may be an option but it will also require additional funding.

The conclusion is:
* The aerodynamic modification and a new engine is much more expensive than a new LMP2 2017.
* They feel that the LMP2 will be much closer next year

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/reb...ur-son-avenir/

[joeb]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

.

The conclusion is:
* The aerodynamic modification and a new engine is much more expensive than a new LMP2 2017.
* They feel that the LMP2 will be much closer next year

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/reb...ur-son-avenir/

That actually makes a lot of sense. Still has to be a tough decision for the team to decide if they should drop down a category.

[JLGarcia]

Originally Posted by joeb

That actually makes a lot of sense. Still has to be a tough decision for the team to decide if they should drop down a category.

Is P2, even with its new, approaching-spec rules, really a step down from P1-L, though? At least P2 is competitive and gets some exposure. P1-L seems little more than a gigantic money pit and the only time you ever see them on TV is when the Kolles catches on fire. You're fighting for scraps, hoping the factory cars crash- it's WEC's Start-and-Park.

The class just seems like horribly poor ROI to me, but then so do Rebellion watches, so I guess it all kinda makes sense in that regard.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by JLGarcia

Is P2, even with its new, approaching-spec rules, really a step down from P1-L, though? At least P2 is competitive and gets some exposure. P1-L seems little more than a gigantic money pit and the only time you ever see them on TV is when the Kolles catches on fire. You're fighting for scraps, hoping the factory cars crash- it's WEC's Start-and-Park.

The class just seems like horribly poor ROI to me, but then so do Rebellion watches, so I guess it all kinda makes sense in that regard.

The thing though is that Rebellion said that they were considering ELMS LMP2. That adds another level to the analysis --- if your goal is exposure, I’m not sure that’s the place to go to get it. To make matters worse, the ACO hasn’t always looked very favorable at teams that stepped down from the WEC to ELMS, so there’s no guarantee that Rebellion would still get a pair of Le Mans invites if they did so.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

The thing though is that Rebellion said that they were considering ELMS LMP2. That adds another level to the analysis --- if your goal is exposure, I’m not sure that’s the place to go to get it. To make matters worse, the ACO hasn’t always looked very favorable at teams that stepped down from the WEC to ELMS, so there’s no guarantee that Rebellion would still get a pair of Le Mans invites if they did so.

This is spot on. The ELMS as a whole is actually neglected pretty hard in terms of LM invites as we saw this year.

If Rebellion choose to step away from P1L, not only will the class be removed from consideration, they will likely end up in IMSA.

One could say they were being rebellious.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by JLGarcia

.

The class just seems like horribly poor ROI to me, but then so do Rebellion watches, so I guess it all kinda makes sense in that regard.

That made me laugh!

[knighty]

If they pull out they could become a sponsor to one of the manufacturer LMP1 teams and probably generate far more exposure opposed to running 4 secs off the pace.......I seem to remember they are a sponsor in F1, see this link

https://jwgrandprix.com/2016/03/18/formula-one-rebellion-manor-racing/

never say never.......they could become heavily involved with F1.......

sorry but I just dont buy that the Rebellion LMP1 team are scratching for funds, I believe they have money coming out of their ears, the fact of the matter is they are just not technically capable of designing a front running LMP1 car with their current half-job approach with a customer car and customer engine, they either need to fully commit to LMP1 and do a proper job with big resources......or go LMP2 or GT racing with all the other rich-boys with no engineering talent, who have to pay companies like Oreca and AER to do the basics for them.

Really they will not be missed from LMP1.....for me the Rebellion team manager alongside the now sacked team manager of Nissan.....whereby he he talks a good job, but under delivers in a mikey-mouse class with only 3 competitors, if the LMP1 privateer class dies off I dont think anyone will care less, its a joke.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by knighty

If they pull out they could become a sponsor to one of the manufacturer LMP1 teams and probably generate far more exposure opposed to running 4 secs off the pace.......I seem to remember they are a sponsor in F1, see this link

https://jwgrandprix.com/2016/03/18/f...-manor-racing/

never say never.......they could become heavily involved with F1.......

sorry but I just dont buy that the Rebellion LMP1 team are scratching for funds, I believe they have money coming out of their ears, the fact of the matter is they are just not technically capable of designing a front running LMP1 car with their current half-job approach with a customer car and customer engine, they either need to fully commit to LMP1 and do a proper job with big resources......or go LMP2 or GT racing with all the other rich-boys with no engineering talent, who have to pay companies like Oreca and AER to do the basics for them.

Really they will not be missed from LMP1.....for me the Rebellion team manager alongside the now sacked team manager of Nissan.....whereby he he talks a good job, but under delivers in a mikey-mouse class with only 3 competitors, if the LMP1 privateer class dies off I dont think anyone will care less, its a joke.

In our opinion what is the difference between privateers like Pescarolo, Racing for Holland and Rebellion?

As I see it, the introduction of Hybrid power ensured that a privateer LMP1 car would never be close to pace of the Manufactures. The only hope they have is reliability issues from the Hybrids. Something that seemed likely this year.

I don't see any issues with Rebellion, I see an issue with the sub-class and it's failure to attract other Privateers.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by CTD

As I see it, the introduction of Hybrid power ensured that a privateer LMP1 car would never be close to pace of the Manufactures. The only hope they have is reliability issues from the Hybrids. Something that seemed likely this year.

It would be interesting to know how much of an advantage the hybrid boost is. Say, put the AER in to the factory cars and what would their lap times be?

[chernaudi]

Factory cars have much better aero, something that the cut from 2000mm to 1900mm width put a premium on, as well as opening up the regs for the front floor behind the front wheel centerline where only the area that the skid attaches to runs to the front wheel centerline. Those tuning vanes are almost an extension of the front diffuser as far as their function.

Also, the factory teams can pay Michelin to make tires specific to their cars, can afford to make custom build engines that allow for the engines and chassis to be packaged/integrated as a unit as opposed to having to make do with a customer car and customer engine, and also, at least as of Nurburgring, the factory teams ran at basically 100% reliability on the mechanical/hybrid end for the first time this season. Only development that the factory teams can afford has allowed that, let alone the performance gap.

Sadly, this is largely an effect of the "give everyone a trophy" approach that the ACO have taken with LMP1 privateer. Most teams don't want a trophy for being the best privateer. Money bonuses and financial incentives, probably, but they don't want a trophy for the sake of having one. Very rarely has a private team ever held a candle to a factory team unless things are artificially made to be spec or done so though BOP, or the factory team pulls out and supports semi-works privateer teams, like Audi did in the R8 days.

So IMO, you can't say that diesel power gave Audi such a huge advantage in '06 in the ALMS and that hybrids have given a similar huge advantage to Audi, Porsche and Toyota now. Those things alone didn't do it. It's everything else also that factory teams can do better because of better resources.

Rebellion certainly aren't going broke racing, but even TMG have a massively larger budget and even more massively advanced facilities in house than Rebellion can get.

[TF110]

They can rent tmg if they want. Rebellion is in a predicament... do they stay and hope for better rules or maybe get a link to a manufacturer? Or do they leave and try dpi/elms/lmp2?

[CTD]

Rebellion fielding the 3rd Toyota next year?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

So IMO, you can't say that diesel power gave Audi such a huge advantage in '06 in the ALMS and that hybrids have given a similar huge advantage to Audi, Porsche and Toyota now. Those things alone didn't do it. It's everything else also that factory teams can do better because of better resources.

Bingo. The reason we're restricted to 3 aero kits is because Audi were taking about 5 different kits to Monza for testing. The cost of development and production of that amount of kit is massive. Meanwhile, Rebellion tape over some vents and call it a low downforce kit. The power difference is only one small part of the gap between the works and private teams.

[carbsmith]

The R-One is probably the least developed P1 car I have ever seen run 3 full seasons. (The CLM is a piece of crap, but they definitely bring new and trendy bits). I've never seen a supposedly major team take several months just to swap engines.

Bringing Pescarolo down to them is an insult. That team was doing extensive in house development by its 4th year and was a legitimate constructor within around twice that. In that time frame Rebellion is lucky to be able to come up with some diveplanes. But they either can't or won't pay ORECA to continue working on it either.