The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

@TF110: The only manufacture that has expressed interest in using capacitors in road cars is Mazda. However the Mazda i-ELOOP system is not a hybrid drivetrain: the capacitor is only used to charge the battery. As I said earlier, only the electric motors of the TS030 might be relevant for road cars. Lithium ion batteries and plugin hybrids are the future for road cars.

The same can be said about the LMP1 diesel engines. Audi was very proud to announced that R15 and R18 engine have VTG turbos. However, VTG turbos are used in road diesel engines for ages.

[steve nielsen]

and now for pit entry

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR5LkMH2_Vk

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I have been intrigued by the 500 kJ for a while. So I decided to do some calculations to determine its performance impact.

A hybrid petrol LMP1 can use 73 liter of petrol during one stint. The specific energy content of petrol is 35 MJ/liter (see here). That means that the fuel tank contains 2555 MJ of energy.

Lets assume that the thermal efficiency of the petrol engine is 30% (see here). That means that during a stint 767 MJ of (useful) mechanical energy can be developed (ignoring drive train losses).

We know that a stint of an LMP1 car is around 40 minutes at race pace. This is equivalent to 11 laps with an average lap time of 3m 38s.

That means that on average the car is using 767 MJ/2400 s = 320 kW or 435 hp. If we assume that the maximum power output of a LMP1 engine is 400 kW, that means that on average 80% of the maximum power is used. That sounds quite reasonable.

The hybrid system will release 500 kJ between every braking zone. On the Le Mans track there are around 7 heavy braking zones? So during a 11 lap stint the hybrid system will be activated around 80 times? That would mean 40 MJ of additional electric energy during one stint. That is worth a gain in power of around 40 MJ/2400 s = 17 kW, which is 17 kW/320 kW = 5%.

If you don't use a hybrid system the fuel tank will be 75 liter instead of 73 liter, which is 2.7% more. So the hybrid system is worth all the effort

Obviously on a track with more braking zones, the gain in performance will be bigger.

Also note that I am ignore other factors, such as bigger cooling requirements and hence slightly more drag and the additional weight (worse balance, center of gravity, ...).

Someone on the EI forum did similar calculations: http://endurance-info.com/version2/f...202585#p202585

He assumes a slightly higher thermal efficiency (32% instead of 30%) and a lot less KERS activations (60 instead of 80 during one stint). Consequently he ends up with a smaller performance advantage for the hybrid system.

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Someone on the EI forum did similar calculations: http://endurance-info.com/version2/f...202585#p202585

He assumes a slightly higher thermal efficiency (32% instead of 30%) and a lot less KERS activations (60 instead of 80 during one stint). Consequently he ends up with a smaller performance advantage for the hybrid system.

The comment of Kazuki Nakajima (300 H.P. ) is not a joke?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

@TF110: The only manufacture that has expressed interest in using capacitors in road cars is Mazda. However the Mazda i-ELOOP system is not a hybrid drivetrain: the capacitor is only used to charge the battery. As I said earlier, only the electric motors of the TS030 might be relevant for road cars. Lithium ion batteries and plugin hybrids are the future for road cars.

The same can be said about the LMP1 diesel engines. Audi was very proud to announced that R15 and R18 engine have VTG turbos. However, VTG turbos are used in road diesel engines for ages.

I never said they'd use capacitors in their road cars. I said the future road car hybrids will use technology gained from their racing projects.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

I never said they'd use capacitors in their road cars. I said the future road car hybrids will use technology gained from their racing projects.

Which technology? I mentioned electric motors, but there is probably not that much room for innovation in that area.

[GTfour]

Apart from F1, It's been obvious for a long time that we see new technical developments from racecars trickle into our everyday road cars, wether it's the more sporty models or the day to day 'A-to-B transporters'.
We see things like perforated/ventilated brakedisks,turbochargers,more reliable gearboxes,more efficient lighting, more efficient types of fuel injection, etc.

I think it's quite irrelevant to argue if specific parts of specific prototypes are or are not gonna be used in our everyday roadcars. In the end, we normal folks do benefit from the efforts car manufacturers put into endurance racing.

I'm very excited Toyota is taking the fight to the guys from Ingolstadt and I will be rooting for them as I am a fan of all Toyota performance cars, owning a GTfour(my second), having owned a Corolla Twincam and having driven MR2's and high power Supra's. Oh,and who was that about getting Ferrari into this discussion? Isn't that this uppedy car manufacturer that hasn't fielded a factory assault at Le Mans for over 40 years ? .......

[TRuss]

There are plenty of innovations left in electric motors. I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing large brushless motors being used yet. When this happens, effeciency will be in 90+% with huge power increases and quite a bit less weight. Just look what was happened in the model airplane world over the last 7-8 years. We are just at the beginning.

[NelisB]

Is the open door/window on the car a throwback feature to the older LMP900 cars? I just noticed the Bentley Speed 8 has a similar opening on it's window.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by NelisB

Is the open door/window on the car a throwback feature to the older LMP900 cars? I just noticed the Bentley Speed 8 has a similar opening on it's window.

Helps draw air out of the cockpit and reduces cockpit temps. What works, works.

[TF110]

The 908 had a similar concept, didn't it?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by TF110

The 908 had a similar concept, didn't it?

Yes.

[gwyllion]

Lapierre: Toyota was a better option

[evanPGH]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Lapierre: Toyota was a better option

Interesting decision, I'm sure most drivers would've taken the proven car/team and stuck with Peugeot. I like his attitude about wanting to be more involved, he seems excited which is good to see.

Good little read, thanks for posting!

[gwyllion]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97216 contains the full interview.

This answer is rather interesting:

The only person I spoke with was Pascal [Vasselon, Toyota Motorsport GmbH technical director]. I knew Hugues [de Chaunac, ORECA team boss] was working on something, because he is always working on something. I had no idea what it was and I don't know if ORECA's deal was done already when I signed, but I am sure that Pascal and Hugues talked about me. I don't think it affected the decision so much because I know that Toyota looked at all the lap times from the past two years and who crashed and who didn't. I was surprised at how much information they looked at.

[evanPGH]

The only person I spoke with was Pascal [Vasselon, Toyota Motorsport GmbH technical director]. I knew Hugues [de Chaunac, ORECA team boss] was working on something, because he is always working on something. I had no idea what it was and I don't know if ORECA's deal was done already when I signed, but I am sure that Pascal and Hugues talked about me. I don't think it affected the decision so much because I know that Toyota looked at all the lap times from the past two years and who crashed and who didn't. I was surprised at how much information they looked at.

This part interests me. I've always been curious as to how teams choose their drivers. Sure there are certain obvious factors but I wondered how much of it was based on numbers like he's suggesting.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by evanPGH

This part interests me. I've always been curious as to how teams choose their drivers. Sure there are certain obvious factors but I wondered how much of it was based on numbers like he's suggesting.

If this was true then why on earth did they choose Nakajima? the kid had no pace when he kept it together in F1 and was slow in SGT.i'd say it was wrong putting him in the Petronas Tom's car because he was slower than Waikisaka and slowed the team down

[TF110]

I'd say he improved a lot. He cut back on the incidents, and his race craft improved. Not sure on his pace though.

[CTD]

And he's Japanese.

[alexkiller8]

well, following this way of thinking, we won't never see mcnish on a toyota race car.... again.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

well, following this way of thinking, we won't never see mcnish on a toyota race car.... again.

you wont see me complaining about that :P

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

If this was true then why on earth did they choose Nakajima? the kid had no pace when he kept it together in F1 and was slow in SGT.i'd say it was wrong putting him in the Petronas Tom's car because he was slower than Waikisaka and slowed the team down

Kazuki had loads of pace at Williams, he just kept throwing it off the track when in promising positions. Given a bit of consistency he'll be great in sportscars.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

If this was true then why on earth did they choose Nakajima? the kid had no pace when he kept it together in F1 and was slow in SGT.i'd say it was wrong putting him in the Petronas Tom's car because he was slower than Waikisaka and slowed the team down

Because he finished second in the Formula Nippon drivers champioship behind Andre Lotterer? I'm not sure how much you watched the 2011 season because it doesn't seem like you did, the Team TOM's 36 finished 8th in the champioship (third best for the SC430's who had cars ahead in tha champioship in positions 6 and 7) with a driver who is new to GT500, whereas a previous two time champion Wakisaka finished, finished 14 out of 15 (the lowest ranked SC430). The 36 finished above the Toyota Team Le Mans car too, but I think I've made my point.

Toyota are deadly serious, they're not going to hire an also-ran driver, he showed real potential as per his finish in Nippon, and real potential in SGT given the Lexus is a old and slow car.

[knighty]

I notice on the Toyota LMP1 press releases they mention who the hybrid parts suppliers are, I know what Denso and the Ultracap supplier are all about but the company that supply the motor-generator system on the front end was a new one to me...."Aisin AW"....I'm thinking the layout would be something like what Williams did on the front of the GT3 porsche flywheel thingy, whereby it looks like a steering rack on steroids........I had a google about and found this link below, which looks real interesting, as the whole Aisin AW motor-generator contraption is based in the wheel hub........god knows if this is actually on the LMP1 car???......just looked at the front wheel images on mikes site and I will be surprised if its all hiding behind the front brake disc!!.....one to look out for me thinks......keep em peeled folks!

http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/product.../ev/index.html

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[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by knighty

I notice on the Toyota LMP1 press releases they mention who the hybrid parts suppliers are, I know what Denso and the Ultracap supplier are all about but the company that supply the motor-generator system on the front end was a new one to me...."Aisin AW"....I'm thinking the layout would be something like what Williams did on the front of the GT3 porsche flywheel thingy, whereby it looks like a steering rack on steroids........I had a google about and found this link below, which looks real interesting, as the whole Aisin AW motor-generator contraption is based in the wheel hub........god knows if this is actually on the LMP1 car???......just looked at the front wheel images on mikes site and I will be surprised if its all hiding behind the front brake disc!!.....one to look out for me thinks......keep em peeled folks!

http://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/product.../ev/index.html

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TS030 does not have an in-wheel motor.
Single motor is equipped in the middle of a front axle according to Sports-carracing.net.