Peugeot 908 discussion

[JAG]

The ITC was essentially a German series that within a few years moved from it's production based touring car routes to silhouettes with F1 technology, for some reason they thought they should expand worldwide at a time when the FIA still controlled promotion and media rights, the ITC and '92 WSC both suffered the same fate.

No, what the ACO is basically doing is building life around a girlfriend who the ACO thinks will be around forever when in reality the girlfriend is a one night stand. Or two nights. Or two months. Whatever. The bottom line is that manufacturers can and will leave at will for any number of reasons.

Most series adopt established regs, whether they be Formula Ford, GT3, S2000 etc., and wait for the entries to come in. The ACO's role is all encompassing, regs are written in a collaborative proccess including manufactuers, constructors and team representatives, moves such as engine size reductions and cost-capped P2's were crticised at the time, but in both cases they've served there purpose by attracting manufactuers and keeping a role for privateers/amateurs when they could have been priced out. A few years back the ACO embarked on a tour of Asian manufactuers, only now is that strategy paying off, the same can be said about Porsche's return, while circumstances can dictate programs are dropped unexpectedly, it's no easy thing to attract them in the first place, and good relations can keep them involved longer.

The ACO has made a clear strategic decision to use the draw of Le Mans to grow the sport, to do so they've changed the very way their organistion operates, the independent Le Mans of these past twenty years is a thing of the past, we may as well get used to the fact as long as there's going to be the 24hrs, there's going to be the WEC.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Most series adopt established regs, whether they be Formula Ford, GT3, S2000 etc. and wait for the entries to come in. The ACO's role is all encompassing, regs are written in a collaborative proccess includng manufactuers, constructors and team representatives, moves such as engine size reductions and cost-capped P2's were crticised at the time, but in both cases they've served their purpose by attracting manufactuers and keeping a role for privateers/amateurs when they could have been priced out.

Yes, the ACO has such a collaborative process with the manufacturers that they put a controversial race like Bahrain on the schedule without telling them. They also scheduled such a tightly packed bottom end of the schedule that the teams are having to spend more money just to be able to do the races. Some collaboration, huh?

As far as technical regulations go, everyone wants something separate. Appeasing everyone isn't going to happen if you have enough people who want their voices heard. That does not lead to a good situation. Cheesing off everyone is easy, making everyone happy is not so easy. I think Peugeot can still have the ACO's ear if they want it, but that isn't the issue so much. I don't think it is technical regulations that are causing issues so as much as Peugeot's general business situation and perhaps some of the financial economic aspects of the WEC. But, hey, that happens when the sport is funded in this particular way. The problem is Peugeot is one of the big pillars that the WEC platform is supported by. If it goes, can the platform survive? Smart series don't support themselves on here today, gone tomorrow fickle mistresses such as the auto manufacturers.

[JAG]

I've read much about the WEC, in a great many cases where doubts have been raised there's been a fundamental misunderstanding of what the ACO as an organisation represents today, the role and powers of the FIA, the challenges for teams competing in a world series and the role manufactuers play.

If you throw into the mix the ghosts of Max and Bernie from twenty years ago and the disgruntlement of some fans, it all add's upto a hot topic of conversation. I think it's now inconceivable you will see the 24hr's run without it being part of an accompanying WEC, with global manufactuers, sponsors and media, Le Mans needs the WEC and vice versa.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

I've read much about the WEC, in a great many cases where doubts have been raised there's been a fundamental misunderstanding of what the ACO as an organisation represents today, the role and powers of the FIA, the challenges for teams competing in a world series and the role manufactuers play.

To use the theme of vagrant broads that I've been using tonight to describe factory teams in a slightly different context, all I have to say is that if a woman is said to be "misunderstood" by a guy who has been hitting the sauce a bit too much, it usually means the woman an overweight psycho witch with huge butt pimples.

We'll see.

[Bentley03]

Some interesting tweets from Graham Goodwin (DSC) suggesting firstly that the Peugeot Le Mans programme may be in difficulty, and later, that a 'solid source' believes there will be only 2 factory Peugeot's at Le Mans this year.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Some interesting tweets from Graham Goodwin (DSC) suggesting firstly that the Peugeot Le Mans programme may be in difficulty, and later, that a 'solid source' believes there will be only 2 factory Peugeot's at Le Mans this year.

Oh boy...read first, post later!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Some interesting tweets from Graham Goodwin (DSC) suggesting firstly that the Peugeot Le Mans programme may be in difficulty, and later, that a 'solid source' believes there will be only 2 factory Peugeot's at Le Mans this year.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...34#post3009534

That rumor triggered the whole "WEC too expensive and bound to collapse" discussion.

Maybe this is a good moment to return the discussion on topic

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Ouch. Hopefully they can convince a team to come in with a private 908 to keep the tally at three. That's not good news

This should be the solution. They need to be offering more privateer cars. The same goes for Audi. Why not have other teams run another R18. Maybe not the latest developments but other teams running a year old car should be capable of getting good results.

[gwyllion]

The problem is that there are not that many privateer teams with enough experience and financial resources to run an old factory car.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by NelisB

This should be the solution. They need to be offering more privateer cars. The same goes for Audi. Why not have other teams run another R18. Maybe not the latest developments but other teams running a year old car should be capable of getting good results.

It can work well when there is an Oreca out there who has tremendous technical and commercial programs, but who else is at that level? It does not really make sense to have privateer cars out there when they have to be subsidized or when they don't run well.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how much developing goes into the Peugeots in 2012 assuming that at least two will remain on the track. They've been cutting jobs and I'm sure there is a lot of pressure of them to make it look like cutting jobs was the last available option. To that extent, maybe just cutting back to two cars could look like cost saving measure to the public even if it really isn't that much of a cost saver. On the other hand, their fiscal problems aren't a joke and they may really need to free up cash to support their business.

[NelisB]

It's true that you need alot of technical knowledge to run a 908 or a r18. Didn't think about that. Still got the 962's in my mind when it comes to customer cars.

[Tom908V12]

If Peugeot plays this way(I mean Mr Varin, chief from PSA, Quesnel,...)let give the Le Mans/WEC titles to AUDI before start of the season !!!!!

It's absolutely nonsense wanting to continue but with budget reducing

I'm terribly ANGRY

[vyselegend]

Well, Peugeot have issued they will hold their 2012 program's presentation at the "Hotel des Invalides" on January 30th.

If they were to anounce their lame retirement, they'd certainly prefer the sobriety of a press conference at their homebase, rather than the expensive rent of a prestigious location to make a show again.

So, whilst I'm sure there will be some drastic cuts to their 2012 campain, (the two cars only story seems well sourced), I'm confident they'll have another shot at the title, and will be on pace with their 908.

Also, I believe lots of cash has been invested in the race version of the Hybrid 4 system, it just doesn't make sense to withdraw at that point. Especially considering years to come will see a greater need for them to promote that technology, as the system will find it's place on a larger scale in the PSA cars.

I'm going to take a risky bet, and say they will hang on during the storm, but stay in Endurance racing in 2014 on further on, simply because that is the best place to be at the moment. Peugeot needs a motorsport presence, and there are no better place to be right now IMO. Le Mans racing in on the growth, as is WRC, and both of those sports still cost less than F1 (which is not exactly growing). WTCC is not attracting ATM, and other motorsports are too localised (Nascar, DTM, Super GT, V8...), or simply not big enough (IRC).

[chernaudi]

DSC has an article for subscribers at their page. I'm not one of their subscribers, so I can't comment on what it shows as new or not, but with their editors tweeting about this, I do have to say that with their track record, where there's smoke, there's fire. However, it's not like Peugeot will completely abandon the WSC at this stage with such an investment made. But this may put the hybrid project at LM in some jeopardy depending on what call Peugeot Sport will make.

[Coach Ep]

Just a short message saying participation with only 2 cars at LM is under consideration. No mention of WEC program or anything else.

I don´t see the point in running only 2 cars at LM instead of 3, the additional costs of running that third car are relatively low I would suspect.

Skipping the WEC program and running only at LM (or a reduced WEC program) on the other hand...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

Well, Peugeot have issued they will hold their 2012 program's presentation at the "Hotel des Invalides" on January 30th.

"Hotel des Invalides" seems like nice place to announce a slightly reduced program

I think that Peugeot will still be competitive. They will probably just save money by only running 2 cars in Le Mans and WEC and relying on the Magneti Marelli F1 KERS instead of developing something exotic themselves.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

Also, I believe lots of cash has been invested in the race version of the Hybrid 4 system, it just doesn't make sense to withdraw at that point. Especially considering years to come will see a greater need for them to promote that technology, as the system will find it's place on a larger scale in the PSA cars.

I'm going to take a risky bet, and say they will hang on during the storm, but stay in Endurance racing in 2014 on further on, simply because that is the best place to be at the moment. Peugeot needs a motorsport presence, and there are no better place to be right now IMO. Le Mans racing in on the growth, as is WRC, and both of those sports still cost less than F1 (which is not exactly growing). WTCC is not attracting ATM, and other motorsports are too localised (Nascar, DTM, Super GT, V8...), or simply not big enough (IRC).

Those are the two things that make me hopeful. They haven't made any use of the hybrid system in terms of marketing at all, even though this is a hugely important field.

Pulling out now would mean the money spent (apart from what Ferrari contributed) would go to waste. That makes absolutely no sense. They want to market their Diesel hybrid technology, there's no better way to do that than to race against a Petrol hybrid to show off the superior technology.

And I honestly don't see them withdrawing because where would they go? There's no cheaper or better way to go racing for them that allows them to promote the road going technology such as hybrid. And they surely can't stop racing altogether, things aren't that bad... heck, GM continued with motorsports when they had to be rescued by the government.

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Just a short message saying participation with only 2 cars at LM is under consideration. No mention of WEC program or anything else.

I don´t see the point in running only 2 cars at LM instead of 3, the additional costs of running that third car are relatively low I would suspect.

But maybe drivers fees are not? I guess drivers like Wurz, Bourdais, Davidson etc are not racing for free, and so adding three star drivers to the bill can turn it heavy. Also, a third car means 50% more chances of crash, which means producing more spares, more tubs, etc.

Not trying to convince anyone (not even myself, as I agree with you), but just trying to understand the point...

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Skipping the WEC program and running only at LM (or a reduced WEC program) on the other hand...

...Would be plain mistake IMO! The best recipe to do a GT one...

[Speed-King]

And I honestly don't see them withdrawing because where would they go? There's no cheaper or better way to go racing for them that allows them to promote the road going technology such as hybrid. And they surely can't stop racing altogether, things aren't that bad... heck, GM continued with motorsports when they had to be rescued by the government.

There's plenty of companies that do little or no racing at all... Seat, Alfa, even VW only does Dakar until 2013. And heck, Audi North America canned their ALMS-engagement in favor of some Superbowl adds. Racing is by no means a necessity these days.

[vyselegend]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

"Hotel des Invalides" seems like nice place to announce a slightly reduced program

Lol, I smiled at that too, but I was finding the joke to be too cynical, considering what's at stake.

Originally Posted by Acid09

Pulling out now would mean the money spent (apart from what Ferrari contributed) would go to waste. That makes absolutely no sense. They want to market their Diesel hybrid technology, there's no better way to do that than to race against a Petrol hybrid to show off the superior technology.

Unless they now have a clue that Diesel Hybrid stands no chance against Petrol Hybrid in Le Mans racing? Usually manufacturers rely on rule lobbying in such situations, but now there's another manuf involved with opposed interests, so that won't work.

I remember having read in several places that Diesel Hybrid was less efficient on paper than its petrol counterpart, but I've not understood why. I guess it has to do with diesels losing less energy, so having less losses to overcome. If someone with good engine knowlege (knighty?) could clarify this it'd be apreciated.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

There's plenty of companies that do little or no racing at all... Seat, Alfa, even VW only does Dakar until 2013. And heck, Audi North America canned their ALMS-engagement in favor of some Superbowl adds. Racing is by no means a necessity these days.

The list is a lot longer: Hyundai, Kia, Lancia, Mitsubishi, Opel, Saab, Volvo, Subaru, Suzuki, ...

[Articus]

Originally Posted by vyselegend

I remember having read in several places that Diesel Hybrid was less efficient on paper than its petrol counterpart, but I've not understood why. I guess it has to do with diesels losing less energy, so having less losses to overcome. If someone with good engine knowlege (knighty?) could clarify this it'd be apreciated.

I just read an article: http://www.iea.lth.se/people/evs20_karin_jonasson.pdfthe seemed to suggest the opposite. It suggest through simulations that the diesel hybrid is more efficient than the standard diesel and the petrol hybrid(even compared with prius like vehicle).

Since the diesel is already the most efficient engine choice

[gwyllion]

Mmmm, it seems that that article does not take the additional weight of hybrid system into account. Diesel cars already tend to be heavier than petrol cars. So a diesel hybrid will probably also weigh more than a petrol hybrid.

[Fogelhund]

Following the DSC postings and tweets, Dagys had a tweet question whether Peugeot would continue at all, anywhere, big a$$ financial troubles, was one of his tweets.

If cuts were necessary, what has been spent already is irrelevant. Also Peugeot managed to survive as a company for many decades without LM, and would surely survive just fine without it moving forward. A simple touring car program would be a fraction of the cost, though there isn't necessarily any reason at all to be in Motorsports if your company is having severe financial issues.

Companies and board of directors make swift cuts, and then the program is gone. The Boards do not have emotional attachments to the programs, just responsibilities to the shareholders. What we must remember is that plans can instantly change, so we can never assume that programs will run infinitely, or that rumoured or even announced programs will always continue. Planning must be made in this sport, to create contingencies should the enivitable occur.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Mmmm, it seems that that article does not take the additional weight of hybrid system into account. Diesel cars already tend to be heavier than petrol cars. So a diesel hybrid will probably also weigh more than a petrol hybrid.

Audi Ultra isn't just a marketing gimmick.The Audi R18's tub/monocoque is only 75kg. I'd say they have a leg up on the competition. Compare that to the 90kg tub of the old Dome S102 coupe. I do not think that diesel engine weight is that big of an issue anymore in the R18 because the R18 could be described as anorexic aside fro the engine so they have a fair bit of room to play with. They seem to have combated it with lightening other areas dramitically(LED lighting system front and rear comes to mind)(vs Peugeot who use i think a combo of halogen beams and LED's). I cannot say the same for Peugeot however. It would seem logical that they are using a heavier tub than Audi given all the tub cracking issues they suffered with the origincal 908.