Ferrari dismiss Stepney/McLaren suspend Coughlan

[Gt_R]

Nobody (i hope) that really cared for F1 will wish that Mclaren is excluded for 2 years. I don't, i do still want a Mclaren or an Alonso be sitting on the grid next year. Because Mclaren is one of the bigger names of this sports, and having them not around will be a big blow. (for the same reason that i believe if the roles are reversed and Ferrari being charged, that non-Ferrari fans will still want Ferrarion the grid the next year, or a non-Williams fan not wishing to see the demise of Williams team..etc).

Real F1 fans will realise the importance of these teams. Not to say that it means that these teams can walk away scott free in the event of breaking the rules... but rather... it's a big loss if they are not on the grid.

IF it warrants/justify a ban for 2008, i will rather just have FIA issue Mclaren with a point-scoring ban... where Mclaren is allowed to race (and fulfil their sponsorship arrangements) but not to score points for 2008. So we can still see Mclaren around. Or like in Italian football, let Mclaren start a season with negative points.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I don´t think I agree with this. No-one team is bigger than the sport, and F1 can survive without McLaren. OK, so there might be less competitive teams next year if that were the case, but a decision has to be based purely on the punishment the team deserves, not how it will affect the championship.

F1 is most definitely about the teams that participate. If Ferrari was not involved in F1, the entire championship would be devalued... and you know what, the status/reputation of McLaren is not that dissimilar to Ferrari. The value of a championship without McLaren would also have to be questioned.
We only need to look at the Indy farce of a few years back to understand how reliant F1 is on the teams that participate. F1 is more fragile than we may think.

Originally Posted by Gt_R

IF it warrants/justify a ban for 2008, i will rather just have FIA issue Mclaren with a point-scoring ban... where Mclaren is allowed to race (and fulfil their sponsorship arrangements) but not to score points for 2008. So we can still see Mclaren around. Or like in Italian football, let Mclaren start a season with negative points.

This would be a more sensible measure... or better still allow them to score points but slap them with an enormous fine - $30M or something. It would probably serve to have the same effect [as points equals TV funding for the teams] but it would be more explicit and would obviate the situation of having two cars on the track unable to score constructors points at every race.

[Born Racer]

Because Mclaren is one of the bigger names of this sports, and having them not around will be a big blow.

It should make no difference that they are a big name, or a competitive team.

Now the thing is, I don´t necessarily think that McLaren should be disqualified just because of the actions of an individual, if indeed Ferrari data didn´t influence the McLaren car. However, if it turns out to be right that the team should receive a punishment, then a disqualification from future races will make more sense in a way than disqualification from this year´s..the reason being that it would be like when Schumacher was disqualified from the 1997 season. It was a nothing punishment. It´s fair to say that Schumacher came 2nd in that championship even though the results don´t say it.

A true punishment would affect the future of the team, such as a 2008 disqualification.

[Born Racer]

If Ferrari was not involved in F1, the entire championship would be devalued.

Not in my book. Teams come and go, and if Ferrari left F1, such would be the state of things. Ferrari would be a part of the sport´s history and they would certainly have written a significant chapter in it, but times change.

[Born Racer]

where Mclaren is allowed to race (and fulfil their sponsorship arrangements) but not to score points for 2008. So we can still see Mclaren around.

I think such a proposal has its problems. For instance McLaren´s drivers would feel they could risk more hazardous moves on other drivers because if they mess it up (and therefore possibly mess up other teams´races) there would be no loss for their championship situation.

[Born Racer]

(I´ve copied this post I made from the Prodrive thread, because it is of relevance here). In a letter from Max Mosley to the three McLaren drivers (see formula1.com), he writes:

I can confirm, given the importance of this issue, that any information you may make available in response to this letter will not result in any proceedings against you under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One regulations. However, in the event that it later comes to light that you have withheld any potentially relevant information, serious consequences could follow.

I don´t understand how the drivers can be promised that they will receive no punishment if they give information. Let´s say, for example, that De La Rosa had loads of Ferrari data and has been making use of it. Why should he be promised immunity from punishment?

[JohnSSC]

It is common in criminal investigations here, Born Racer: You get people who have minimal participation in a crime (and I am only making an example, not accusing Mc right now) to testify to what they know so you can expose the wrongdoings of those with greater criminal culpability.

PDLR tells what he knows and that info is used to develop the full picture of what others knew/did. If it leads nowhere, than so be it.

[Born Racer]

But if one of the drivers were found to be one of the biggest culprits in the whole thing, I don´t understand how they can then be protected from punishment

[JohnSSC]

Well, how could the driver be the biggest culprit when we already know that the info was sent straight to the top of the food chain at Mc.

Punishing the guys at the bottom of the chain would accomplish nothing.

[bosch!]

Of the latest allegations Re emails:

If Stepney freely offers information at a test session to Coughlan "Your cambers all wrong mate, try anouther 4.5 degrees" and Coughlan tells PDR who tells gonzo..

I dont see how this can be considered illegal, otherwise you could just go about disclosing your secrets and phoning the FIA if someone trys what you have just told them you basically have a licence to entrap all your rivals.

The more I think about it the more I wonder why Ferrari arnt being investigated as well, surely they also have to take responsibility for the actions of their employees?

[Gt_R]

The situation some are trying to portray are simply trying to be in denial that Mclaren could even be remotely POSSIBLE to have done something wrong, and tried to cover it up.

And that seeking Ferrari to be investigated with "arguments" that Ferrari has to be responsible for Nigel merely shows a lack of regards to the sense of law and regulations, and an attempt to "drag" Ferrari down together with Mclaren. Sort of a "If Mclaren dies, we must make sure Ferrari isn't better off" mentality.

I have said earlier that a championship without Mclaren next year, and after, will be a big loss, making the championship meaningless. But perhaps i forgot to add, similarly, if Mclaren had done something wrong (IF, subject to legal proceedings) and simply walk off, then the championship is similarly meaningless.

It started off with an act of an individual - Mike. But the virus just spread within Mclaren, and that not only did the team allow the information to spread (to Neale, to Pedro, to Alonso)... that members of the team continually lied (in the WSMC hearing, to the press) by not clarifying events and hiding important truths... i think this is what is wrong, it almost made the possession of the data seem secondary.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

It started off with an act of an individual - Mike.

That is actually inaccurate. It started off with an act of an individual - Nigel

[Adam43]

There was another individual before Mike.

[Bononi]

I must admit that I'm having seconds thoughts about this whole damn issue... they say something's must happen, Montezemolo is putting pressure and threatening to make something if nothing happens...

[Knowlesy]

Yes. And we can be sure, if nothing happens, that we will be treated to the most remarkable pout of fury from de Montezemolo.

I'm too am starting to feel ever more uneasy about the results of the hearing.

[bosch!]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

And that seeking Ferrari to be investigated with "arguments" that Ferrari has to be responsible for Nigel merely shows a lack of regards to the sense of law and regulations,

The FIA are NOT arbitors of law, mearly the FIA sporting code and they are doing all kinds of gymnastics to find a way to pin something on Ron and his team under these regulations.

Bringing the sport into disrepute is also amongst these regulations and Ferrari, if only by there persistant leaking of the case, are doing this in spades.

[ralf fan]

I really think Mclaren will only be fined. Bernie has his tv figures to worry about.

[Marbot]

Last time I checked,all the teams were taking part in the "FIA Formula One World Championship",so for some of us to say,'Oh go on,let'em off!' and 'It just wouldn't be Formula one without them',aren't really taking into account exactly what it is that the FIA are supposed to be there for.We can't have some teams thinking that they are untouchable simply because they are a 'big name'.

[Born Racer]

I don´t have time to go sifting through possibly over 100 pages to find the information I want, so could someone please explain something about how the investigation is working as regards investigating Stepney?

[Gt_R]

Quote:"aren't really taking into account exactly what it is that the FIA are supposed to be there for.We can't have some teams thinking that they are untouchable simply because they are a 'big name'."

I agree with you MrV, and that's the point i said with regards to the gearbox thing, when people blame FIA instead of Mclaren for not following procedures appropriately. FIA is the governing body, not Mclaren.

But it's not easy for fans to be fully objective, and i for one will be sad IF Mclaren is out of F1 for next year. Still..i agree. If need be, the appropriate punishments be meted out to Mclaren, however heavy.

[Knowlesy]

It is indeed hard for fans to be fully objective, I agree.

[Gt_R]

Not sure if this is posted, but formal notices of criminal investigations have been served to all suspected parties by the Modena police.

The notice is served to:
Ron Dennis
Whitmarsh
Neale
Mike Couglan
and Nigel Stephey

Notice of charges include Sporting Fraud and Industrial Espoignage

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Last time I checked,all the teams were taking part in the "FIA Formula One World Championship",so for some of us to say,'Oh go on,let'em off!' and 'It just wouldn't be Formula one without them',aren't really taking into account exactly what it is that the FIA are supposed to be there for.We can't have some teams thinking that they are untouchable simply because they are a 'big name'.

You are absolutely correct Martyn and not to detract from the points that you make. But I still think McLaren will receive a fine over this. I just can't see how any employer can monitor every move made by an employee, especially one who's ultimate intention is to move elsewhere.

[Knowlesy]

Hmmm....so is this the stage set for attention whore Italian coppers to step into the fray?

[Suze]

I hadn't seen that GT_R - maybe some should leave Monza now?

What happened with Stepney's claims about being chased etc?