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22 May 2018, 17:27 (Ref:3824001) | #1626 | ||
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Quote:
This whole saga started years ago when the ACO didn't support the privateer entries and went for the big cash with no backup plan. The ACO dug this hole themselves. Since then they've recognised that and done a pretty decent job climbing out of the hole in quite a short period of time. However, an unwinnable situation? It wouldn't even need to be balancing the EoT on a minute by minute basis had they included the privateer cars in the development process back in 2011 when they first giving serious attention to factory hybrid cars. The situation is not unwinnable. It's just poorly managed. We're now doing 7 years of catch up in 7 months, and the result is a rapid-fire balancing of cars. Sorry if I'm not impressed with a panic response to a situation they built themselves. You know what's as boring as "I hate the ACO!"? It's the "The ACO isn't doing anything wrong!" reply. Two sides of the same coin. |
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22 May 2018, 17:47 (Ref:3824003) | #1627 | |
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That's what I mean, rather than talking about the merits of the EoT table or practicality of balancing cars with fuel flow people make judgments based on grudges held for 7 years...
Even if one would grant that this is all the fault of the ACO themselves, what does that have to do with being 'unimpressed' with how they handle the balancing itself? It has no relation whatsoever. The current situation is the ACO is trying to balance the privateer cars against Toyota. Whether that is a 'panic response' or not is completely irrelevant. People have already made up their minds based not on a fair judgment of the situation and facts and you demonstrate that perfectly. I also really don't care whether you defended the ACO in the past or not because that is also irrelevant. I'm arguing against your position, not against your person. Besides this clickbait article by a known hack we don't even have any clue about the Le Mans balancing yet. And it doesn't matter because as the reaction to this 'article' demonstrates, the ACO has already lost. Toyota will probably win Le Mans unless they break down and the only sentiment people will come away with is that the ACO will have given them the win for free. Last edited by EffectiveSprinkles; 22 May 2018 at 17:52. |
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22 May 2018, 17:52 (Ref:3824005) | #1628 | |
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Well it’s strange it should do it now. I think it’s a mess this whole balancing acts. Why do past seasons matter. I think it’s an important bit of news, although they’d be better reporting other series
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
22 May 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3824010) | #1629 | ||
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Not sure I follow that at all SG......? What other series?
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280 days...... |
22 May 2018, 18:05 (Ref:3824017) | #1630 | ||
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Let's also be fair, ACO do have telemetry access that we don't have. One or two LMP1 teams might have been sandbagging on purpose to have the pace of Toyota reduced.
We don't know the whole truth and I keep faith in that ACO wishes a close race at the top as that is what in the end keeps the crowd entertained. |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
22 May 2018, 18:08 (Ref:3824020) | #1631 | ||
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Well said Mathias. Keep the faith!
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280 days...... |
22 May 2018, 18:16 (Ref:3824022) | #1632 | |||
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Quote:
It's also extremely unfair to label negative opinions are grudges. You're attempting to discredit any negative opinion with a dismissive comment. That isn't fair. If I dismissed all of your posts as being a fanboy for simply loving everything the ACO does, you'd be the first to call unfairness. So sorry, I disagree. Peoples opinions on the situation are neither based on grudges, or irrelevant. My position is I don't like seeing goal posts constantly moving about before a big race in response to a situation having not been managed properly. If you're unhappy with this position then that's fine - but it's not based on some fictional grudge, and it is certainly not irrelevant. And whilst it's just my opinion and certainly not fact, it is also not an uncommon opinion. Quote:
If this was clickbait it'd have a headline like "Are the ACO trying to screw Rebellion?" but this doesn't fit the clickbait template at all. In fact, the headline matches the content of the article and if the numbers are accurate then it's not clickbait even slightly. Not sure how it could be accused of that tbh. |
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22 May 2018, 18:26 (Ref:3824025) | #1633 | ||
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Quote:
If you actually had some valid criticisms, say for example about the EoT for the Spa race and its outcome, then we could talk because I probably share a lot of those. |
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22 May 2018, 18:28 (Ref:3824026) | #1634 | ||
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People may apply their prejudices to magazines as well as governing bodies.
Sprinkles you make a good point about basing your opinions on all the facts and we don’t have them here. I tend to agree with your point that it may make sense if you do have all the information the ACO has. However, we don’t have all the facts and people have to go on what they do have. That leads you to see the cars that were behind on pace at Spa suffering a drop in performance. There are reasons to think that isn’t all there is to it, not least the change in hybrid power per km. Another reason people need to draw conclusions from limited information, as long as they reconginsie that, is that otherwise there is nowt to talk about as we never have all the facts. |
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Brum brum |
22 May 2018, 18:32 (Ref:3824028) | #1635 | ||
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Quote:
We will see what they have done when LeMans is over, I hope their target is to make private teems faster over one lap, they have a long way catching Toyota in the pits and longer stint length. Only this way they can keep things interesting, otherwise it will be a walk in the park for Toyota. |
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22 May 2018, 18:36 (Ref:3824031) | #1636 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
If we're going to keep calling these factors irrelevant then I don't see how the discussion can progress. You can't just label them as irrelevant because you don't think they are part of the conversation. The history of this situation is completely relevant as we wouldn't be here without it - the whole response and quick-fire adjustment of the EoT that people aren't liking is because of almost a decade of mismanagement. When discussing a problem (and a solution) it's important to consider all the factors in how you arrived at that point, rather than just label them as irrelevant. Sorry if you don't like that - but it's not irrelevant, and it's certainly not grudge holding to consider this poorly managed. Not to be rude, but I imagine everyone reading this is getting a bit bored of us, so if we continue down the "it's irrelevant route" then I think I'd rather let the conversation end than hijack the thread, as it's clear we won't agree on that. |
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22 May 2018, 18:46 (Ref:3824037) | #1637 | |||
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22 May 2018, 18:52 (Ref:3824040) | #1638 | |
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That's wrong though, the fuel allocation hasn't been reduced. It's (allegedly, since I don't see a bulletin) the peak fuel flow rate, which just means they'll have slightly less power and be doing less (or supposedly, zero) lift and coast to use the same energy per lap. For Rebellion that might actually improve their lap times by removing the guessing.
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22 May 2018, 19:04 (Ref:3824045) | #1639 | ||
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Quote:
It's a stretch to suggest that this would be a lap time improvement though. 110kg/hr was the maximum fuel flow rate, not the rate at which it must flow. If it would improve lap times by cutting the rate, then the teams would do that themselves anyway to get that performance. So best case scenario is we're we were before? It's a stretch to praise the move, and even when it's praised the best case is no change. Again, I don't have a grudge, but I fail to see how that's a good thing even in best case. If that is why it's done, then they need to stop tinkering with things for the sake of tinkering with things. |
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22 May 2018, 19:20 (Ref:3824050) | #1640 | |
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I really don’t get where the series is going, we’re discussing fuel flow rates and the like, and I don’t get power reduction either. It’s a strange move from the organisers, they must have a good reason for this. This is a bad move for the series IMHO. I just don’t get why they constantly have to change the rules, getting desperate perhaps?
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
22 May 2018, 19:27 (Ref:3824054) | #1641 | |
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Ideally speaking it definitely shouldn't help, no, but it makes consistency easier if they don't have the electronic package. Generally fans tend to complain about mismatched fuel flow rates and the resulting lift and coast anyways.
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22 May 2018, 20:17 (Ref:3824072) | #1642 | ||
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Well, there was hardly any BOP in the LMP900 days. Audi Sport dominated because they had the best car and team. They were also the only major manufacturer who seriously invested in the formula after BMW, Toyota, Nissan and Mercedes pulled out.
Compare and contrast this: Similar in that Toyota are a factory team and the only major one left, big difference is that at least Audi, especially in the R8 days, didn't get (at least on paper) several concessions, whether or not they asked for them or not. I don't agree with automatically making Toyota out to be the bad guys here, because for all we know they may not agree with these changes, even if they're the ones benefiting from them. But the ACO have had a track record of making bad or questionable decisions since late 2008 in my opinion, dating back to the '09 wing span reduction and not getting privateers more involved in the regs making process, and repeated formulae changes every three years or so. But all we can hope for is that if there's too big a descrepency between Toyota and the other teams is that the ACO hold up their end of the bargain. If not, then I do hope that the WEC implodes and they really have to start back at square one. I know that it's cold to wish for bad things to happen, but it sems like the ACO's brass have to hit rock bottom before the right the ship. |
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22 May 2018, 21:08 (Ref:3824087) | #1643 | ||
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22 May 2018, 21:39 (Ref:3824094) | #1644 | |
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The ACO are right not to give concessions to Toyota. They do have a weird way of going about it and I wonder if it is all worth it
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He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
22 May 2018, 21:44 (Ref:3824100) | #1645 | |||
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Quote:
Even if it's given that Toyota are supposed to be .5 of a second faster around LM at least on a flying lap, they have way more than that in hand based on the Spa results. I know that the privateer cars should still have untapped potential, but even given that I would've held off on making any EOT changes until at least Spa or the test day vs the Prologue. |
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23 May 2018, 01:08 (Ref:3824108) | #1646 | |
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I have something to add, Rebellion said they were guessing how much fuel they were using. If you believe that then they will be better at using their maximum at the test day if they tested trialed that at Monza. I'm sure they will do their best to get the best out of it. Another thing is that Toyota had 6mj for 7km at Spa. They have 8mj for 13.6km for Le Mans. So a ratio of .85mj per km down to .58mj per km. The 'drop' of fuel allowance for the private teams is less than 2% meanwhile.
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23 May 2018, 09:53 (Ref:3824167) | #1647 | ||
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Me, I'm relaxed about it... |
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23 May 2018, 10:07 (Ref:3824168) | #1648 | ||
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Moi aussi. No wringing of hands here...
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280 days...... |
23 May 2018, 11:39 (Ref:3824185) | #1649 | ||
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Well in 3 weeks time we will know how they did at the test day and be waiting with baited breath for the first practice, always have a soft spot for rebellion as have all those who possess the team shirts given to us on our visit many years ago. I will as always be wearing mine on the saturday.
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23 May 2018, 17:03 (Ref:3824250) | #1650 | ||
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Yep, I still have mine, pristine and unworn and unless I lose several stone, it never will be!
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280 days...... |
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