Peugeot 908 discussion

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by CTD

Who knows, it might be revived in 2013 .

Why would they revive it in 2013? They'd have to sink loads of money in to play catch up in terms of developement for a car that's only good till the end of the season with the new regs in 2014.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by aneesh99

Why would they revive it in 2013? They'd have to sink loads of money in to play catch up in terms of developement for a car that's only good till the end of the season with the new regs in 2014.

Because Peugeot don't start developing the 2014 car in 2014, but in 2013. Same year as all rumors of a comeback will start.
Therefor this thread will revive in 2013.

[deggis]

Looks like have already started.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by CTD

Because Peugeot don't start developing the 2014 car in 2014, but in 2013. Same year as all rumors of a comeback will start.
Therefor this thread will revive in 2013.

Apologies, I misunderstood, I read it as 'making a return to the track' as opposed to opening their garage doors

[deggis]

Latest Autosport has story by Watkins and there are some interesting comments by Saulnier and Famin especially on failures of 2008 and 2010. About 2010 Famin says they planned to use the new titanium conrods only on two cars originally, but then a supplier and a dyno issue appeared so they couldn't use the old steel ones at all, and thus ended up using the titanium ones on all four.

Also mentioned is that the original plan had the race debut set for 2008, but Peugeot boss(es) wanted it to happen sooner.

[gwyllion]

What is meant with "new titanium conrods"? Another specification of titanium conrods (stronger) than the ones that they used in Le Mans?

So did they know beforehand that the Le Mans conrods were too close to the limit? Why did they not use the steel conrods that they used in the other races of 2010?

[deggis]

I wrote that in a confusing way.... edited. Also should now answer your question.

[gwyllion]

The latest edition of Race Car Engineering has an article about the 908 HYbrid4 that will never race. See http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issn=0961-1096&p=54

The main new features of the 2012 908 were the battery based hybrid system, VTG turbos and a quickshift gearchange system, which was already used in the Zhuhai race last year. Maybe the latter could be the XTrac IGS solution, mentioned in http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132064

Peugeot fought hard to reduce the capacity of hybrid from 1 MJ to 500 kJ, for economic reason, and for the 120 km/h rule, in order to reduce the advantage of 4WD.

The big limitation of Peugeot's battery based hybrid system was cooling:

'We think the system should do 3MJ per lap,' said Oliver Jansonnie, head of chassis R and D. 'It is a temperature limit for the system. You could perhaps get 4MJ for one lap, maybe more, but you will not be able to do it for 400 laps, that is for sure.'

The big advantage, on the other hand, was that the hybrid system was relatively lightweight. The complete hybrid system weighted only 52 kg in total: 26 kg for the battery (+ 4 kg when full of oil), 7 kg for the 120 kW electric motor, 3 kg for the power inverter, and 2 kg for a DC/DC converter to convert from 350V of the hybrid system to 14V for the other electronics in the car. By removing the starter motor, alternator and 12V battery, the entire extra mass was only 40 kg. The hybrid 908 weighed 870 kg, so 30 kg of ballast was needed.

The decision was made to develop the electrical systems in house, after initial work by Bosch, and to build the battery pack themselves. Initially the idea was to integrate the battery pack in the gearbox bellhousing and cool the battery with water. They experienced problems with this approach, so they went to a more traditional oil-cooled method with the battery pack in the tub. Also the water cooled method would have been dangerous in case of leak in the battery.

[alexkiller8]

didn't the hy4 908 have to use a ferrari derivated kers?

[gwyllion]

No, the 2009 908 HY demo car used a F1 KERS. The solution for the 2011/2012 908 is developed especially for the LMP1 rules (500 kJ per braking zone).

[Bubak]

Yeah great stuff by RacecarEng.


Hey boys, something about Peugeot 908 after all: Does anyone have a full Peugeot 908 2011 (or maybe 2012 too) chassis list? How many cars was built and were used together? Which number was a hybrid car (test hybrid car?) ? I found this: something like 908-01 was displayed as a hybrid, and number #03,#04 and #05 were used for LM test, Spa and LM2011 (chassis #04 for num. 7, #05 for num. 8 and #03 num. 9), for ILMC rounds Peugeot added chassis info into a press release, so subsequent infos I have from Peugeot press release: chassis #03 num. 7 and #04 num. 8 for Imola, Silverstone and Petit Le Mans, for Zhuhai brand new #07 for num. 7 and #08 for num. 8 car (and development work, VTG turbo and a quick shift gearchange system) . It is all correct? And what about #02 and #06 chassis, or other chassis? Ohter way, according a racingsportscars.com website, for 12hrs of Sebring 2011 Peugeot used old 908 HDI FAP chassis, link here http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...011-03-19.html #04 for num. 7 and #09 for num. 8 car (and of course #10 for Oreca Peugeot). What differences was between 908 HDi FAP and 908 new 2011 chassis, dimensions? Yeah Famin said that only windscreen have a same. Otherwise, What differences was between 908 Sebring 2011 spec and 908 new front nose 2011? Does anyone have a photo of front 908's nose at Sebring in 2011 just like here Mike at Petit LM last year here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...8844099&type=1


BTW: So, for 2012, according an article in RacecarEng. about chassis upgrade for hybrid and Ulrich Baretzky for Drive Uncut interview said that they know that Peugeot had brand new cars for 2012 (he said four cars with spare parts, 2 normal and 2 hybrid cars, for update of chassis for bateries for hybrid, 2 normal maybe used at Zhuhai at all, so maybe some spare chassis). And Peugeot mechanic said that they brought a new chassis (N/A number) from Capricorn a week before Peugeot's announcement , so and info about it, Peugeot can make a new chassis in 6 week.
So, they raced 6 times with new 908, use old chassis for Sebring (probably, if it is true), new for China, have a new for 2012 from another company (cooperate with, but pay for it I think, that is normal in our world). And definitely put a lot of money into the development of hybrid system and had a many numbers of endurance test. That must cost a millions until January 2012. Yeah, just like said Baretzky for Drive Uncut interview: Sebring, Spa and LM cost nothing after all this.

Thanks for all your answers, you are welcome!

[alexkiller8]

in sebring peugeot delivered a not definitive version of the 908 i guess, at least speaking about the bodywork.

The car had still front light like the 908HDi and the high drag nose that wasn't used anymore for the remaining races.
Can't be denied that this bodywork reminds a lot the previous generation of 908. Maybe peugeot thougt that was better to grid the 2 new but not definitive cars than two old but heavily restricted 908HDi.

From spa debuted the definitive version of the 908

Really different front area, low drag nose and different brake ducts, a bit different side structure of front area with that winglet; higher and redesigned arches with a different style of front lights. Seems that also the side mirrors have been reworked. These and other details that maybe someone else can see better show a really updated car from the sebring race.

Sincerly i'm not convinced that peugeot used the 908HDi tub for the sebring debutant 908, at example who knows if in the 908HDi tub could be placed a smaller engine without rework something, but maybe some clues about this theory is that during first development stage the 908 suffered of recurrent suspensions failures (that caused crashes during test and DNF in spa race) cause by the tub apparently and maybe for sebring they used old but reliable tubs.
In my opinion the truth is in the middle; being a conservative car, i know that a working prototype of 908 was already available in the summer of 2010, surely this car had a new tub, but very similiar to the one of the 908HDi and maybe these mulet tub have been used during first development stage and in sebring race. Between march and may 2011, peugeot finalized the bodywork of the car and produced the three new definitive tubs. Just my opinion.

Aboout recycle/reuse of old tubs, i know for sure that in zhuhai 2010 one of the 2 r15+ was using one of the first tubs built in 2009 (or maybe 2008) for the first model of the r15.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Bubak

So, they raced 6 times with new 908, use old chassis for Sebring (probably, if it is true), new for China, have a new for 2012 from another company (cooperate with, but pay for it I think, that is normal in our world). And definitely put a lot of money into the development of hybrid system and had a many numbers of endurance test. That must cost a millions until January 2012. Yeah, just like said Baretzky for Drive Uncut interview: Sebring, Spa and LM cost nothing after all this.

The more you know their plans for 2012, the sadder it is.

[deggis]

Quesnel was interviewed on RLM at some point yesterday and he said something like "personally I don't think we will be back very soon". I guess the way he said this means he still works for Peugeot.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by deggis

Quesnel was interviewed on RLM at some point yesterday and he said something like "personally I don't think we will be back very soon". I guess the way he said this means he still works for Peugeot.

Well that comment is no surprise, I don't see them back until there's a serious shift in Peugeot's management and their view towards racing. Wouldn't be surprised if it takes another 10 years...

[TF110]

Hopefully that changes, but if not- at least Toyota and Porsche are here. And when Toyota can get the reliability and kinks sorted out (I'm sure it'll happen by the next 24) we'll actually have a good show instead of the boring Audi vs. Audi show. Silverstone should be great since it's much shorter than LeMans. I'd really love to see Peugeot come back, it's sad they ever left.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by deggis

Quesnel was interviewed on RLM at some point yesterday and he said something like "personally I don't think we will be back very soon". I guess the way he said this means he still works for Peugeot.

If Peugeot had been at Le Mans this year with a car updated as was Audi's, I think they would have won with all the issues Audi had. Real shame they left the game when they did.

DK

[CTD]

Whats interesting from the Quesnel interview was that he saw The 2014 regulations as more expensive than the 2011. Not good when trying to convince a board.

[old man]

Thought provoking:

tp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-18/renault-mulls-salvation-in-new-luxury-as-europe-sales-fade-cars.htm

[Articus]

Originally Posted by old man

Thought provoking:

tp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-18/renault-mulls-salvation-in-new-luxury-as-europe-sales-fade-cars.htm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...fade-cars.html

[Articus]

What in the world is going on here? Pic from 2012 Le Mans.

Courtesy of Mike Juergen QuattroWorld.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Articus

What in the world is going on here? Pic from 2012 Le Mans.

Courtesy of Mike Juergen QuattroWorld.

Well, Well thats a shot to especulate ....

[Articus]

Its hard to believe Peugeot wont be back soon. They were with us in the early 90's. Then they came back in 2006. And they have the cars ready as well as a hybrid system.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Articus

And they have the cars ready as well as a hybrid system.

Needs to be pretty quick comeback if they want to use the existing designs...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Hopefully that changes, but if not- at least Toyota and Porsche are here.

Who said that Toyota will still be here by 2014? Or even Audi?