[Official] Las Vegas Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 22 of 23

[Plantagenet]

Completely agree. However, the slight problem with the old circuits are better argument (which i adhere too) is that recent races at especially Spa (which many purists consider the best circuit) have been poor. Can't recall a really great recent Monza either, but have they been more lively than Spa. Silverstone (which i put as the other of the holy trinity) does seem to provide better races consistently - although maybe my British-bias is coming through here.

Then we get Singapore, which (probably) everyone on this forum sighs at slightly, which delivers the best race of the season (IMHO). And then this horrible layout at Vegas delivers a good race.

It's a shame because I am starting to sound like my old man, when I tell my son why circuit x is good and circuit y is bad, when of course they actively disregard what you say and then the actual races at the moment don't really align with that opinion.

Not really sure what the solution is, but Spa looks very vulnerable to me as a F1 venue which is an almighty shame.

[S griffin]

Spa still delivers for me. It’s just been unlucky that circumstances meant that hasn’t been a great race recently. This year’s Monza was good though as was Silverstone. Plenty to talk about after those.

Singapore managed to produce a good race of course, but there are other places that could too which aren’t much better. And Vegas had some good stuff after low expectations

However we need to keep the likes of Spa on the calendar. Would be a travesty if that left the calendar

[AndreasDavour]

Let's not forget that the reason Singapore turned out ok was they stopped trying to run as slow as possible. As long as running it slow is incentivized it will not be fun.

[Lancsbreaker]

Race surprised me by being better than I expected. First corner incidents didn't surprise me.....tho to me it didn't look as if Max even remotely tried to make the corner, there looked to be very little lock applied until well off the track. Penalty versus give the place back? Both pretty academic, really.....


Great fight from Charles at the end

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Race surprised me by being better than I expected. First corner incidents didn't surprise me.....tho to me it didn't look as if Max even remotely tried to make the corner, there looked to be very little lock applied until well off the track. Penalty versus give the place back? Both pretty academic, really.....


Great fight from Charles at the end

I was kind of expecting a first corner incident, the surprise for me was everyone kept going after it. Certainly added to a good race

[bjohnsonsmith]

It's too late for next year but If Liberty are going to continue with three races in the US and 24 races in a season, I would like to see the Vegas GP moved to earlier in the year and swapped with Miami. Hurricane season is virtually over in November and early May would be better for Vegas.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Has anyone called out the special Vegas liveries for the cars? I know a few teams ran them. I loved the AT livery. But the stand out for me was the Ferrari. They were doing a throwback to the 312 T4, but it just looked absolutely stunning to me. The white on the shark fin, the white with black "Ferrari" on the rear wing, the roundel on the nose with car number, the white with red Shell logo on the side. I know it is a temporary livery, but they should keep it.

guess it got all lost in the shuffle for me, but yes indeed, more of that Ferrari livery please. beautiful!

[S griffin]

I think the Ferrari looks fine in it’s usual livery, but that one off livery was quite nice

[E.B]

The Ferrari Red and White Vegas livery I thought was stunning and I would love for it to replace the to me rather drab and below par livery they have run this year.

Just goes to show one man's meat is another man's poison.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

Completely agree. However, the slight problem with the old circuits are better argument (which i adhere too) is that recent races at especially Spa (which many purists consider the best circuit) have been poor. Can't recall a really great recent Monza either, but have they been more lively than Spa. Silverstone (which i put as the other of the holy trinity) does seem to provide better races consistently - although maybe my British-bias is coming through here.

Then we get Singapore, which (probably) everyone on this forum sighs at slightly, which delivers the best race of the season (IMHO). And then this horrible layout at Vegas delivers a good race.

It's a shame because I am starting to sound like my old man, when I tell my son why circuit x is good and circuit y is bad, when of course they actively disregard what you say and then the actual races at the moment don't really align with that opinion.

Not really sure what the solution is, but Spa looks very vulnerable to me as a F1 venue which is an almighty shame.

To me, this points towards the reason for a great race is not the layout, but the conditions under which the race is run.
In the Vegas case, the cool track temperature, new seal which was also dirty because regular traffic ran over it during the day, little degradation (which questions why we build degradation into the tyres to make the show livelier), and its a new circuit, also long straights so plenty of DRS zones.

Weather can also turn a usually dull race into a great race....
Great circuits on the other hand, are venues where we have the opportunity to see cars driven at their very extreme, high speed, fast corners, esses, variations in altitude, etc.
Turkey for example, replicated in various forms some of the great corners, and drivers loved it.
But great circuits don't always produce great races. But we like them for other reasons.
Is F1 for simply popular entertainment, or is it to exemplify the best driving and road racing we can find on the planet?
This also is reflected in Max's attitude to the Vegas GP.
He loves vegas as a place, and enjoyed the GP and the racing, but isnt a fan of 'the show'.

[Mike Harte]

Teretonga mentions that there was little tyre degradation, yet the pundits and even Pirelli were predicting the opposite; I don't know whether Pirelli was trying to blunt expectations on the tyre front or what!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Teretonga mentions that there was little tyre degradation, yet the pundits and even Pirelli were predicting the opposite; I don't know whether Pirelli was trying to blunt expectations on the tyre front or what!

Little degradation on the Hard, which everyone preferred. Mediums tended to grain a lot more.
All odd in some respects because i'd have thought the hards wouldn't operate well in the cool temperatures, and I had assumed the softs would have lasted longer but they seem designed to lose grip after a few miles regardless of the track temperature.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by E.B

The Ferrari Red and White Vegas livery I thought was stunning and I would love for it to replace the to me rather drab and below par livery they have run this year.

Just goes to show one man's meat is another man's poison.

Every overhead/aerial shot of the Ferrari made me immediately think of the 312T. I know it's the livery but it looked like that.

That was a far better car than this one, overall!

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's too late for next year but If Liberty are going to continue with three races in the US and 24 races in a season, I would like to see the Vegas GP moved to earlier in the year and swapped with Miami. Hurricane season is virtually over in November and early May would be better for Vegas.

You have to take into consideration this time of year at Miami, the stadium is in football use .... they aren't going to be able to run football weekends and build up the circuit at the same time.

[S griffin]

True, but I do think Miami might have worked better as an end of season race,albeit a non championship one

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

True, but I do think Miami might have worked better as an end of season race,albeit a non championship one

If they ever did that, I expect the majority of posters would call the race meaningless and a waste of time and money.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by E.B

The Ferrari Red and White Vegas livery I thought was stunning and I would love for it to replace the to me rather drab and below par livery they have run this year.

Just goes to show one man's meat is another man's poison.

My feelings too.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

You have to take into consideration this time of year at Miami, the stadium is in football use .... they aren't going to be able to run football weekends and build up the circuit at the same time.

The stadium is only in use if Miami have a home game. The Vegas GP was held when the Raiders were on the road, coincidentally at Miami.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's too late for next year but If Liberty are going to continue with three races in the US and 24 races in a season, I would like to see the Vegas GP moved to earlier in the year and swapped with Miami. Hurricane season is virtually over in November and early May would be better for Vegas.

Hurricane season is NOT virtually over and in fact they have had some particularly bad ones in early Nov that would END any chance of the build up of the course as materials are restricted if a hurricane makes those supplies needed elsewhere. Technically Dec 1 is the end but there's discussion of moving that.

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

You have to take into consideration this time of year at Miami, the stadium is in football use .... they aren't going to be able to run football weekends and build up the circuit at the same time.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The stadium is only in use if Miami have a home game. The Vegas GP was held when the Raiders were on the road, coincidentally at Miami.

Miami is run literally fully within the parking lot of the stadium, the neighborhood sued and won quickly when they first proposed the streets so that ended fast. The Vegas track could be built without interfering with the Raiders stadium at all, other side of the airport and 593/Tropicana. That would allow it to slot in around an off or road weekend without conflict. Miami baseball stadium, and Heat arena, is on the side of town and only game in town at the time of the GP so well away. and Miami would be crowded as it becomes a destination for snowbirds at that time of year.

Vegas slots in late in the season better than Miami and I don't think Vegas would work well in the May slot, Vegas in May is highs of 30-32 and down to the teens.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If they ever did that, I expect the majority of posters would call the race meaningless and a waste of time and money.

At least this one would be more for fun and therefore wouldn’t detract from the championship

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Hurricane season is NOT virtually over and in fact they have had some particularly bad ones in early Nov that would END any chance of the build up of the course as materials are restricted if a hurricane makes those supplies needed elsewhere. Technically Dec 1 is the end but there's discussion of moving that.

The 2023 Atlantic hurricane season is from June 1 to November 30. The Vegas GP is held in the middle of November. If Miami were to swap, would not the hurricane season be virtually over by then?

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Miami is run literally fully within the parking lot of the stadium, the neighborhood sued and won quickly when they first proposed the streets so that ended fast. The Vegas track could be built without interfering with the Raiders stadium at all, other side of the airport and 593/Tropicana. That would allow it to slot in around an off or road weekend without conflict. Miami baseball stadium, and Heat arena, is on the side of town and only game in town at the time of the GP so well away. and Miami would be crowded as it becomes a destination for snowbirds at that time of year.

The MLB season ends at the beginning of November, so no conflict with the GP as it is later in November, so that just leaves the Heat and NBA to contend with and and as you say that's in a different part of the city.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Vegas slots in late in the season better than Miami and I don't think Vegas would work well in the May slot, Vegas in May is highs of 30-32 and down to the teens.

Those are day time temperatures. The race is held late at night, when the temperatures are 61-63° F, 16-17° C in early May.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

At least this one would be more for fun and therefore wouldn’t detract from the championship

to make them race in the absence of any meaningful competition in a parking lot with fake boats...just my opinion, but please let them go back to their families at season's end.

but that said, like many other sports, perhaps a pre season race held before the season starts, perhaps in lieu of or an extra winter testing session, could be an intriguing idea?

of course this has nothing to do moving Vegas or Miami around.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The 2023 Atlantic hurricane season is from June 1 to November 30. The Vegas GP is held in the middle of November. If Miami were to swap, would not the hurricane season be virtually over by then?

Technically, yes. However we have gotten late season hurricanes, most recently with Nicole hitting us last November. We also get quite a few tropical storms and depressions in November. In May we get the occasional rainstorm. The chances for a really wet and windy race in Florida are greater in November than in May.
IMO, Miami should be even earlier in the schedule due to heat, rain, etc. The weather in March is really nice, but logistically that is probably not an option without revamping the entire schedule.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

Technically, yes. However we have gotten late season hurricanes, most recently with Nicole hitting us last November. We also get quite a few tropical storms and depressions in November. In May we get the occasional rainstorm. The chances for a really wet and windy race in Florida are greater in November than in May.
IMO, Miami should be even earlier in the schedule due to heat, rain, etc. The weather in March is really nice, but logistically that is probably not an option without revamping the entire schedule.

Exactly that, heard the same thing from my dad's buddies living on Kendall and Keys, ex Pan Am pilots all seem to end up that way. March/April is great, May-Sept sucks, Oct-Jan is old people so just no

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

to make them race in the absence of any meaningful competition in a parking lot with fake boats...just my opinion, but please let them go back to their families at season's end.

but that said, like many other sports, perhaps a pre season race held before the season starts, perhaps in lieu of or an extra winter testing session, could be an intriguing idea?

of course this has nothing to do moving Vegas or Miami around.

No it’s better to have a wind down at the end of the year. Keep the testing beforehand and that keeps the build up to the first race