Club F3

[JohnMiller]

Thanks Jon, perhaps you could bring it to Donington and we could check it just so we know for the future.

[Jon Gray]

Ok I carry it with us anyway, if you let me know what engine you have and if it is 24 or 26mm and the size of your silencer I could possably tell you if you have a problem or not.

[JohnMiller]

No problem.

Opel Spiess, 26mm, about 2ft long I think, over the 'box.

I doubt I have a problem but it would nice to know some readings in case I can put the smaller BF3 can on!

Thanks again.

[Jon Gray]

I agree I think you will be ok but we can check it at Donnington so at least you know. See you there .............

[ss_collins]

Combe over charge, but this talk of low grids makes me question the viability of club F3

[JohnMiller]

Let me guess. You approve of the words 'Club' and 'Formula' and like the last two letters of the word 'Three' but aren't sure about the 'Thr' feeing they should be replaced with a 'V' and the cars uprights should be replaced with something from a 1920s Kubelwagen?

[Jon Gray]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Combe over charge, but this talk of low grids makes me question the viability of club F3

The words each to there own comes to mind, I have been racing F3 cars for the past 10 years and to me they are the best single seater you can drive at club level, so if you want to do mono-Formula V- or any other that's up to you. I always thought this thread was about Club F3 ?

[Suze]

What was the grid size at Combe last year...?

[Jon Gray]

Don't quote me on this but I think there was about 17 in the past we have had 20 plus.

clubF3 would have had about 15 for the race but at Rockingham 3 cars had problems with accident damage and engine problems. So if it is down to numbers for Castle Combe we would have found it hard to meet there demands at this stage of the championship. There are 27 cars registered to date so we are expecting the numbers to increase as the season goes on.

[driftwood]

people waffling about f3 cars etc
uk f3 has 16 cars? last year had 24?
F1 in 1990 had 35 cars and pre qualifying- today we have what 18 cars?

I would rather run f3 car in its format
this mono/F4 with the agro of swapping engines making them fit jacking cars ride height up making sure wings are right height etc is not woirth the cost an dtime far easier toi run tha car a sit was designed to be run
the mono guys all say f3 is more expensive but when u add in the changes messing around u spend more $$££€€

i know a man in mono with 300 car spent more building the mono car than f3 car would have cost him plus all the agro involved
the only "saving" in mono over f3 is rebuild cost of the motor- the tyres are same cost new but if its your thing to run on used rubber feel free but u will never be a winner on cast offs
I saw some mono cars at donington and i was the sponsor i would ask 5 of them to go home and return when they had either cleaned their cars painted them I am surprised the scruts let 2 of them pass

If your going to race on a limited budget do 4 races well rather than 6 badly!
the standard of car presentation is high in F3

[Suze]

Thanks Jon, wasn't sure as didn't make it last year.

Would 12 / 15 have been a realistic expectation for Combe this year then?

[Jon Gray]

Yes I think so we did ask who would enter of the registered drivers. Now it is on to Donnigton where there should be a couple more cars out.

People go on about the cost of club F3 and most say the engines are to expensive they should speek to Xtec Engineering they have looked after my engine. It does not cost a great deal more than my Minister FF1600 engine when I done formula ford.

[driftwood]

the mono guys expect engines to be rebuilt for 500 to 1000 quid and do it themselves!!
If u took the mono XE to a pro engine shop they would come out at 1k upwards u cant compare man in his shed rebuilding a motor to a pro shop rebuild
thats like saying u built an extension in your spare time for half the builders estimate

a proper f3 engine has labour alone at more but 3-4k should cover most f3 rebuilds which is good value compared to what to flight f3 tuners want for current spec engines but it doe sdepend on what new parts are being put in

as you say FFord rebuilds are not that cheap u need to pay 3-4 k for a kent engine to be capable of winning these days and im guessing a rebuild will be 1k onwards with the top kent tuners

it cost me 8k to do my F2 engine and 10 or more to do my f3000 which makes the f3 rebuild cheap for a proper race engine !!

motor racing sadly is not cheap and damages your wealth
how ever u can die happy or be miserable by leaving all your money to the government in tax and death duties !!

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Jon Gray

Yes I think so we did ask who would enter of the registered drivers. Now it is on to Donnigton where there should be a couple more cars out.

So why didn't they want to come out to play then, money..?

[Jon Gray]

It's not the money we could not get 20 cars I was booked in for testing on the Thursday and so were other ClubF3 drivers. Castle Combe is a local circuit for a lot of ClubF3 drivers so I feel sorry for them in fact it's a bit late now but maybe we could have subsidized the meeting.

[Grandslammer]

Just to put a definitive number to the F3's that appeared last year at Combe,and that was 19 at the May meeting,with 12 appearing for the wet October raceday .
Pity about this year ,as I do like F3's

[Jon Gray]

I am sorry to we are not there it would have been a good race if our first two rounds are anything to go by.

[Cleggie]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Combe over charge, but this talk of low grids makes me question the viability of club F3

Perhaps its far too early to question the new series vialbility, in its ARP form its suffered from years of neglect or mis-management. It seems that the ClubF3 administration are going about things the right way, but the regeneration will take a long time to complete. Look at how many apparently failing businesses are taken over by new management and still struggle for years before they come good. It may take longer than they have got but I think it will get there, its tough if the odd race get canceled along the way, and this will be not good news if the sponsors go away because of it.

However, it can't be denied that F3 is almost the top level of single seater racing and the primary route for new, serious drivers to progress through from Formula Ford on thier way up.

Formula Ford and similar must be the best pool from which ClubF3 can get its revenue from and increase its numbers so it has to look at the way it promotes itself to them.

The first would be to dispel the myth that it needs such a fantastically larger budget than a good FF1600 driver uses to do well in ClubF3 - it doesn't.

The second is that the cars aren't so difficult to manage as people believe.

The third is that the engines costs are high and need expensive rebuilds every year, they're under less stress than a Kent.

Any FF1600 drivers who are looking to move up should take a close look at ClubF3. There are so many good F3 cars out there for sale, of any class, that they won't really need to pay the often excessive asking prices!

[reynard55]

I was told by the chaps at BMTR that the control tyres for Club F3 this year are a harder compound than last year, I cannot remember what BMTR said was the new compound but it was A24 last year, what was the reason for the change?

[Jon Gray]

The tyre's are a different compound they were changed so they would last even longer but more importantly they would stay consistent the front tyres are wider as well. In my old Reynard towards the end of the race you would get understeer not a lot but you could notice it. In the later Class A cars it is not so apparent but the wider front has defiantly helped.

This year we also have a completely different wet tyre I have only used them once or twice but they are a massive improvement on last years.

[MikeBz]

It's a dreary wet & cold Monday morning, so...

Originally Posted by driftwood

im not emotive over my race series i just know i want to race a car in its original design format whether its f3 Ff1600 sports car or F1

And then...

Originally Posted by Jon Gray

The tyre's are a different compound they were changed so they would last even longer but more importantly they would stay consistent the front tyres are wider as well.

This year we also have a completely different wet tyre I have only used them once or twice but they are a massive improvement on last years.

Mike

[ss_collins]

where are the potential club f3 entries - there must be loads of old dallaras kicking about, and a fair few reynards/ralts. Why are people not racing? is it cost - if so how can costs be cut? is it rules - then they should be changed.

Is it the organising club?

Club F3 needs a boost or I think it should be merged with something else

[Redracer77]

why not have Club F3 as a class within Monoposto? Then you will have the guys that want to spend the money on ££££ engines and run at a low ride height and the ones that don't can keep running in the monoposto class.

I don't think Club F3 can carry a championship on it's own. If they joined Monoposto they could develop and grow to a level that would allow them to build upto that level. It is no good running a championship saying that Donny is a good race so we will have 15 cars. For starters 15 cars is still not good enough and secondly how many will there be when you visit Mallory or Snetterton?

There is only a small pool of drivers who want to pay the type of costs that comes with F3. And Cleggie before you start I know it can be cost effective but the engines do cost a lot and if people know other people are rebuilding all the time then why bother?

[driftwood]

Mr Collins IF u had been following F3 last year or so you will have found the old arp heirachy were the initial problem
bad attitude to running a formula baiscally psd people off BIG time!

In the past the grids where 20-30 cars no problem some guys doing the whole season like Jon Gray others picking a few rounds to suit their life pattern/wallets etc but on the whole grids where strong

Mismanagment not listening to drivers views ( after all the paying customer) bad inter personel & PR liason skills put some guys off racing so when grids drop where is the incentive to join a series

Keith Baldwin grabbed the bull by the horns with BRSCC dumpe dthe old heirachy found new sponsor Tv coverage and now we have a better atmosphere
However some wounds need soothing and some courting is required to get the older drivers back out racing again
sadly motorsport is not cheap and when u have had sand kicked in yr face u need good reasons to spend yr $$ again!!
The grids will rise in the 2nd half of the season but we have a degree of apathy with drivers entering late and some potential new comers saying they would like to race f3 car but will watch the series this year before joining- sadly this adds the the catch 22 situation
If the guys bit the bullet & joined in that would be the better soloution get 2 seasons of 2-4 more guys running and grids would be 25 strong and then others would join in

there are plenty of f3 cars out there ready to run from £8k-38k in 3 different classes
some cars can be leased for 1 race or more
running costs are not high
the mono guys have the same entry fee car running costs per races at f3
the only saving they have is the engine rebuild every 2 years and the perceived "cheap" used tyres they get from main stream f3 cars
The 3 guys winning in mono will buy new tyres every round or 2 just like Club F3 is doing
all the other parts cost the same clutch brake pads accident damage whether u run ralt/reynard or dallara car

when u look at the regional FF1600 series the later VD kent cars cost the similar ££ to buy as an F3 car and the guys running at the sharp end will be spending £3-4k for the best motor fitting new tyres every round or 2 and im willing to bet the seasons costs will be similar for a man running his own car to the drivers paying at eam to run their respective cars

There is NO reason for club F3 to merge with another series as nothing is comperable-FR are 2 secs lap slower Mono 3-5
I remember 10 years ago toyota f3 had good grids and then died off
then it had a resurgance with an invitation class in HSCC DBT events
now its a stand alone series

All it needs are bums in seats and less talk and MORE action from car owners
all the guys wanting to sell a car need to get it out in some races show it off boost grids and they will help the series AND themselves to sell the car to someone

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

why not have Club F3 as a class within Monoposto? Then you will have the guys that want to spend the money on ££££ engines and run at a low ride height and the ones that don't can keep running in the monoposto class.

I don't think Club F3 can carry a championship on it's own. If they joined Monoposto they could develop and grow to a level that would allow them to build upto that level. It is no good running a championship saying that Donny is a good race so we will have 15 cars. For starters 15 cars is still not good enough and secondly how many will there be when you visit Mallory or Snetterton?

There is only a small pool of drivers who want to pay the type of costs that comes with F3. And Cleggie before you start I know it can be cost effective but the engines do cost a lot and if people know other people are rebuilding all the time then why bother?

Bound to have hit nerve there and the reply from Driftwood bares that out!

The apparent rivalry between Mono and Club/ARP F3 continues!! Although I am not sure why. There are only a few people running F3 type cars in Mono and those that are have all investigated Club/ARP F3 and decided to stick with Mono - the cars may run at 40mm but it obviously suits them and their budget. Good luck to the Club F3 guys but suspect that it really is aimed at a different audience/ budget to Mono.

As it is, combining grids is a hot topic; the Midlands FF1600 runners have been combined with the BARC-SEC race this weekend at Mallory Park and are not happy. Despite the fact that FF1600 only had 4 entires at closing date, BARC-SEC had 6 and F Ford Zetec had just 6. Very difficult for the BRSCC to justify running 4 seperate races with those grid sizes (Zetecs are supposed to be a double header and still retain there own race, to date).

The biggest grid of the whole meeting appears to have just 13 cars (Porsche 924s). Club racing is in trouble and series with low entries will have to combine with others or die. BTW, Mono does still appear to be thriving with healthy grid sizes - must be doing something right.