Stoner, Rossi and the "Crap" Ducati

[GORDON STREETER]

I know things have changed somewhat over the years but throwing money at things without the innovative input from really clever guys is a no brainer.
In 1984 two of my mates made a 250cc race bike in a dingy upstairs room about as big as my garden shed and won the European 250cc championship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...pean_champions
This was done on a shoestring budget that they couldn't sustain and had to give it up before the firm went bust.
Most of the bike was built in house without ultra sophisticated machinery and no help from major motorcycle firms.
To see the set ups and expense for poor returns at GP levels these days just makes me laugh, as the guys at Exactweld reminded me the other day

[chunder]

I have lots of articles about the Exactweld, it was a clever machine, a Roatx engine with 4 carbs! Weird looking thing

[GORDON STREETER]

John and Guy are very unassuming guys, I've known them for years from when the used to make the Chassis for Surtees.
On the bench the other week was an engine out of a very famous race car that they were asked to weld up as the multi million pound firm that was recreating it couldn't do it !
Guy can weld the proverbial sh** to a blanket !

[GORDON STREETER]

Although this isn't the said innovative design bike, they made this for someone a while back

[GORDON STREETER]

And as we are all mates, welded up Dave Akhurst's little gem using one of my old alloy gas bottles for the fuel tank

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EGG

I don't know that altering traction control on the bike can produce a large enough effect on the racing. It will change how the bikes are ridden, but may not bring them closer on-circuit for the full 45 minutes. There will still only be 2-3 teams capable of winning, and that will remain dependent on cash flow and the level of commitment of the manufacturers. There was no TC in the Doohan era and I still feel somewhat sorry for anyone who wasn't an aussie during that period. The ability of a single team to throw cash, Doohan, development and Burgess at the bike over-ruled Team Rainey's efforts.

Just an idle thought, but does anyone think the move to Moto2 with it's spec engine and claiming rules (effectively ruling out manufacturer presence and providing a support base to Suter/FTR/Tech3/Moriwaki), and also the CRT teams next year are part of a longer term effort by Dorna to build up a significant non-manufacturer presence in MotoGP? And by significant, I'm thinking they could eventually manipulate a multi-decade switch over to prototypes built by garagista teams with engines supplied by manufacturers, essentially removing factory bikes from the picture.

Hopefully I've enunciated this concept well enough, as being less of an increased presence of also-rans, and more of a long-term restructuring of the actual players involved and decreased reliance on manufacturers.

Part of the problem with the premier class is there's rarely more than two major parties at any one time, with one slightly outspending the other. It's then mostly in their interest to maintain a degree of status quo. For this reason we see lower-speed expensive satellite bikes being the only option made to privateers. They're not fast enough to catch the factory bikes, and they're too expensive to result in large grids.

Moto2 and the claimer engines has been a great class this year.
Nice to see smaller manufacturers entering GP racing and the racing has been great. Not always for the lead, but certainly all the way through the field.

Whether the manufacturers will provide the field with their engines is another question in MotoGP. It would be a pity to see the cutting edge technology removed from the sport. The bigger engines will even the field out a bit, as getting the last hp out of the bike will be less important, and the engine tuning will become a little less of a differentiating factor.

[chunder]

Gord, that does look like an Exactweld though, I rememver the Sterling sub machine gun chassis!

The proper one was green? I think they tried to get it tio GP levele but never had the right funding. Did you know much about Joe Ehrlich? He was a miracle worker with Rotax engines aswell, but a very difficult man I believe?

[GORDON STREETER]

The main thing I know is that Dr Joe was clever at marketing himself as if he had invented everything to do with 2 stroke tuning. Obviously getting Hailwood to ride an EMC got him noticed all those years back but a lot of lesser named riders were saddled with big bills that they weren't expecting !
However he did a lot of good experimental work in his day finishing up with this http://docscipark.com.au/ee_tech.html

[GORDON STREETER]

They didn't use a seperate chassis on the GP bike, just the engine/gearbox.

[Gerben24]

Havent been on 10ths for a while, quiet a surprising thread this. For a while I have thought that VR's last championship wasnt his best, cause he's been past his best for a few years now. Racing a motorcycle is very physical demanding and I therefore I think it wont become any easier for him. I think his best years were on the Honda, for me the race that stands out is Philip Island when he got a 10sec penalty and still won the race. It does say something about Rossi because I think he's still good enough for wins.

Than again, Honda make everybody look stupid this year, apart from Lorenzo. Also, when you compare Rossi's results with Stoners from last year, they are at times pretty close. There aren't that many good comparisons, cause Stoner dropped it a few times at the beginning of last years and Rossi has lost the plot since midseason, this year. Just compare how far Stoner and Rossi finished behind the leader in Catalunya, Mugello, Brno, Misano (keeping in mind the Honda's quality versus the Yamaha's quality last year). It doesnt take anything away from the way Stoner rode the Duc.

Although Stoner is very fast I dont think he is as a complete rider as Rossi (and Lorenzo for that matter). I think he is not very strong in raceconditions. There were times where he was in the position to come through the field and he couldnt do it. I know he must have won 40 races by now, but few of them have been through good battles. Also in a direct fight, Rossi owns Stoner. Furthermore I think Stoner makes to many unnecessary mistakes, even on the Honda.

But most of all I think Stoner has a bad personallity. Criticizing the team or other rider in cases where he was to blame as well. What I find most desturbing is his kicking and hitting actions on track. What kind of example is he setting there?

Comparing Rossi and Stoner over the last 2 seasons on the Duc, results alone, gives a very clear picture. Looking at their complete career, gives a very different view.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Gerben24

Havent been on 10ths for a while, quiet a surprising thread this. For a while I have thought that VR's last championship wasnt his best, cause he's been past his best for a few years now. Racing a motorcycle is very physical demanding and I therefore I think it wont become any easier for him. I think his best years were on the Honda, for me the race that stands out is Philip Island when he got a 10sec penalty and still won the race. It does say something about Rossi because I think he's still good enough for wins.

Than again, Honda make everybody look stupid this year, apart from Lorenzo. Also, when you compare Rossi's results with Stoners from last year, they are at times pretty close. There aren't that many good comparisons, cause Stoner dropped it a few times at the beginning of last years and Rossi has lost the plot since midseason, this year. Just compare how far Stoner and Rossi finished behind the leader in Catalunya, Mugello, Brno, Misano (keeping in mind the Honda's quality versus the Yamaha's quality last year). It doesnt take anything away from the way Stoner rode the Duc.

Although Stoner is very fast I dont think he is as a complete rider as Rossi (and Lorenzo for that matter). I think he is not very strong in raceconditions. There were times where he was in the position to come through the field and he couldnt do it. I know he must have won 40 races by now, but few of them have been through good battles. Also in a direct fight, Rossi owns Stoner. Furthermore I think Stoner makes to many unnecessary mistakes, even on the Honda.

But most of all I think Stoner has a bad personallity. Criticizing the team or other rider in cases where he was to blame as well. What I find most desturbing is his kicking and hitting actions on track. What kind of example is he setting there?

Comparing Rossi and Stoner over the last 2 seasons on the Duc, results alone, gives a very clear picture. Looking at their complete career, gives a very different view.

Some fair points. I remember Phillip Island because for the 2nd time that season he got a 10 second penalty. He had one at Donington. But personally I felt his best season was 2004 when he moved to Yamaha. I don't feel he was ever pushed whilst on the Honda, the bike was so much better than the opposition.
In 2004, I think you saw just how good he was because he rode beyond what the bike was capable of.
2005 and onwards, Yamaha started developing the bike as directed by Rossi and Burgess which in turn allowed the other Yamaha riders to move up in the results.
Today's race showed just how good that Honda is, Casey getting back on the podium and Dovizioso and Simoncelli with ride throughs and still got back up to the front.
Only Lorenzo is able to infiltrate the Honda encampment, and only when Yamaha is in its sweet spot. It seems that Rossi's input is slowly starting to be missed..

[chunder]

I would not really say the other Yamaha riders really got any up the order when Rossi was there.

Checa, Abe, Melandri, Edwards, Toseland?? None of them were really podium contenders when they were on a Yam, in fact the only guy that ever did anything with it pre Rossi was Biaggi!!

Vale was clearly within himself on the early Honda, and peopel forget the only reason Barros beat him late on in 02 was that his bike was an early model, less power better slipper clutch, Repsol were experimenting with stuff abd Rossi was having trouble downshifting and with the clutch. in 03 he was invincible really.

Jorge has been good this year, but as you say not everywhere, would Rossi have been? Who knows. But I agree that Honda is utterly unbeatable in most tracks. I think half the fleld, Bautista, Barbera, Puniet, Edwards could podium on that bike really.

[mac]

Originally Posted by herowassenna

... Casey getting back on the podium...

Did Casey have to "race" and pass some other riders in Japan? I didn't know he could do that...

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by mac

Did Casey have to "race" and pass some other riders in Japan? I didn't know he could do that...

There is very little need to "race" people who are several seconds behind you.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by mac

Did Casey have to "race" and pass some other riders in Japan? I didn't know he could do that...

Really?



It's not so much "racing" when you are passing people you would normally finish 30 seconds ahead of...

[chunder]

There is very little racing this year in GP, the Honda is the quickest thing in a straight line and has the best electronics, the Yamaha is the best through the bends when you can set it up, so the wins are handed out accordingly really.

Modern GP is just a a GP, not a race, it's why it is so dull! And dont be fooled by Moto2, Marquez is playing with people most of the time, sitting and waiting until he gets a chance to rocket away, it's just that this time Iannone had a better setup!

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by mac

Did Casey have to "race" and pass some other riders in Japan? I didn't know he could do that...

A perfect representation of how mis-quotes completely change the original statement...

I wrote: "Today's race showed just how good that Honda is, Casey getting back on the podium and Dovizioso and Simoncelli with ride throughs and still got back up to the front."

At no stage did I write the word "race" in regard to what the aforementioned riders did. But as tabloids have proved since time immemorial, why let the truth get in the way of a story...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chunder

There is very little racing this year in GP, the Honda is the quickest thing in a straight line and has the best electronics, the Yamaha is the best through the bends when you can set it up, so the wins are handed out accordingly really.

Modern GP is just a a GP, not a race, it's why it is so dull! And dont be fooled by Moto2, Marquez is playing with people most of the time, sitting and waiting until he gets a chance to rocket away, it's just that this time Iannone had a better setup!

Why exactly do you think that Marquez is so dominant?

[chunder]

Marquez is dominant because he is basically a Suter works rider, was running a 2012 chassis already, dont know if anyone else is.

He has more money than anyone else, that team has a big budget.
He is tiny compared to most of his rivals, note Elias is aswell, and on bikes with the same power and stuff this makes a difference.

And he is pretty good which helps!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chunder

Marquez is dominant because he is basically a Suter works rider, was running a 2012 chassis already, dont know if anyone else is.

He has more money than anyone else, that team has a big budget.
He is tiny compared to most of his rivals, note Elias is aswell, and on bikes with the same power and stuff this makes a difference.

And he is pretty good which helps!

Thanks Chunder.
So a good deal of it is merit based, and the rules need tweeking with respect to rider weights, which would be a good step in all forms of motor racing that does not already have such a rule.
I don't know what you do about chassis and money though.

[bestfit]

Marquez is dominant because he is far and away the best rider in the field and yes I include Bradl in that.
He has got the money and backing because he is a super talent just like all the super talents who came before him and the super talents that will come in the future. On top of that he is Spanish, young and marketable.
His ride yesterday was stunning (his actions on Friday were reckless and foolish). The sooner they get the kid to MotoGp the better and I hope they back him to the hilt. He is the next alien.

[wnut]

Did anybody see the interview with Burgess at Phillip Island, and I quote,
"We need direction from him (Rossi) and until we get it we are lost to be quite frank!"

[chunder]

I do rate Marquez, but he certainly has a huge advantage with weight. And money, and being a Suter works man pretty much.

You don't do things like that until you have both types of advantage. If he was on an MZ he would not be doing it. Plenty of riders have done this kind of thing in junior categories. Capirossi, Biaggi, Cadalora, Harada, Poggiali! Pedrosa, etc etc. The only ones that have really gone onto great things are Rossi, and pretty much Rossi. Stoner was never dominant in 125/250 and though Dani was he has never been in GP.

I want him to move up too, if only to prove that he really is that good, or if he is anotehr Pedrosa, too small to cope with a big bike.

And if he stays in Moto2 next year then the class is not worth watching.

I do also think the rest of the grid is fairly poor, guys like De Angelis, Iannone, Corsi are not reaklly top drawer, never have been.

As for Rossi and the Duke, I don't think he has a clue why the bike doesnt work. All I do know is that I have watched him since 1996 and never seen him so unconfident in the front, as SOON as he pushes it he does what he did yesterday and crashes.

It's a dog, that only one guy in the world probably could ride.

[Born Racer]

Ought Marquez not to stay in Moto2 for one more season? He has the talent to inevitably be a good Moto GP rider, so why rush him into this? A parallel with Formula 1 would be Jaime Alguersuari. He's coming good now, but it's taken time because he was rushed into F1 a bit too quickly.

[bestfit]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Ought Marquez not to stay in Moto2 for one more season? He has the talent to inevitably be a good Moto GP rider, so why rush him into this? A parallel with Formula 1 would be Jaime Alguersuari. He's coming good now, but it's taken time because he was rushed into F1 a bit too quickly.

There is nothing to be gained by keeping him in Moto2 for another year for several reasons. He will win Moto2 this year (or come extremely close), to spend another season there would be just treading water. There is a huge step up from Moto2 to MotoGP in power, electronics, the miriad of setup options and especially the tyres. He would learn nothing more in Moto2 which would assist him to be competative in the premier class.

MotoGP is also changing to 1000cc bikes next year, with the rookie rule in place it is the perfect opportunity to slot him into a satellite team (albeit heavily factory backed) and learn the ropes with minimal pressure put on him to perform. From 2013 he would be eligible to move to a full factory team at a time when most of the factory riders are up for contract renewal. This gives HRC/Repsol more options depending on his perceived performance. He could replace Pedrosa or Stoner (unlikely), or HRC may revert back to a 3 man team and run them all.

We will know more next weekend as they are going to announce their 2012 plans at Sepang.

We could be hearing the Marquez name for a long time to come. Next year his brother Alex is joining Moto3. Alex is ranked by many as being more talented than Marc. That is a scary prospect.