Chevron B19

[allenbrown]

Dear Helen

I may have given you the wrong impression in my last post. When I said I wanted to know which B19 Affentranger had in 1972, I wasn't expecting you to tell me, I was just making the point that this was one of the things I intended to find out from contemporary records or by asking someone who knew him or who spoke to him before he died - such as Roman. I know you guys have worked on many of the cars and will have access to original records but there's no particular reason you should know second or third owners of all the B19s.

All this will come out in time - just as it has on Chevron B24s or Lola T332s or Maserati 250Fs or any of the other types of racing car that have been examined in detail.

Dr Lienau is keen to keep secrets. Fortunately, he'll find that difficult. Indeed, his attempts to keep things secret will just arouse the suspicion of more people and make it even more likely that the truth will out.

Allen

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

Hello Mr. Driftwood (if you are not hidding your real name).


I feel we come from different religions. I prefer to believe in well documented facts and a clear chain of owners etc. Thats by the way the same religion I feel the FIA trusts.

You prefer to believe in hearsays and rumors supported by journalist, which as we all know only report the absolute truth. Instead of the owners you prefer the opinion of the selfcalled experts and specialists.

I do not know, how both religions can find to live together. My proposal is to accept there are at minimum two categories:

- genuine B19`s which means cars with clear history (and in future HC-Papers + HTP Papers, if the owner wants to race them)
- copies faked or whatever cars, which may have today as well earned a history because they are used for racing since twenty or thirty years, which have HTP-papers. If you like to race those cars, they are fully acceptable and have a very high value, which is not so far away of the value of the genuine car.

There may be one or more cars, which would deserve the status as a genuine car, but cannot prove it because original papers are lost and the owners do not find a way to prove the history, bad luck.

[Simon Hadfield]

Dr Lienau, if it ever came to the point that these histories had to be put to the absolute test I can guarantee that the "self called experts" you are so quick to denigrate would win the day. The very point you make about them having no vested interest is what gives them their credibility - they have no axe to grind, no commercial interest to protect, their interest is not in pricking peoples pomposity but history for histories sake, and I suspect that is what is so threatening to so many.....

[driftwood]

Dr A
i have asked if you have spoken to Ralf Walters about the date he got his car and yet have no answer to this simple question
This is the IMPORTANT fact in your cars history
If for example it is March 71 it cannot be the true car 10 if it is august 71 or january 72 it is possible

we know WRA/Cannon team car was raced and crashed and we know when
we do not have the factory files to inspect sales date and if car was returned to be rebuilt and what was fitted ie new chassis or it was repaired then later sold to new customer ie Ralf W
maybe what they have is correct and then it will then confirm or disproove your cars status and any other car 10 that exists

My religion is no to kick sand in your face but to hear all the info and facts and then a picture forms
it is just the same as a murder mystery film
what you think at the begining of the film is different to the end when you hear all the facts
By having discussions with the cars early year owners look at race dates hear when they win or crash gives the info you need
Also finding the mechanics is useful they often know more than the car owner!
already in the last 24 hours a chevron b48 and ralt rt1 cars history and info have been posted all because 1 man talked to a car owner of a brabham bt36 and other info flowed that filled in the gaps of 2 other race cars and 1 that i knew was not an F2 car but in fact an F3 car

so the more people you talk to the more info is gathered and the truth comes out

the FIA is not god either ( more a pain in the neck at times) and i do not bow before them

[Dan Rear]

A very lucid point DW, by your standards!! We just need to work on the typing skills now don't we...

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

A very lucid point DW, by your standards!! We just need to work on the typing skills now don't we...

Thin ice Dan, thin ice!

[driftwood]

i have not been drinking and doddery i am not!

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

I understand that this forum is not the place to herald the history of my car again and again, but I add that Mr. Walter got the car in the second half of 1971.

I doubt that there is still anybody alive who can 100 % remember what exactly happened in those busy days at the chevron factory. I can only imagine that they had a lot of cars around and I can not for sure say that they didnot "reuse" number 10 for a customer car, especially when they knew that the new owner lives far abroad and the "first" Number 10 was destroyed.
But again I even do not know, if there had been a "first" number 10 chassis and if that first number 10 was used by WRA and driven by Mr. John Burton and later destroyed. I addition I do not know, why the chevron company gave my chassis the number 10. One explanation is, that it was the 10 in the production row or what ever reason. But I know for sure that the chevron Company gave the chassis plate and chassis number 10 to the car, which I own.

I have absolutely no problem, when a second B19 No. 10 appears and it can be shown, that exactly that car is the WRA car, driven by Mr. Burton, later heavily crashed and than in the year 1971 or 1972 repaired and used afterwards as for example B19 No. 10 A (or even No. 10).
If that case could be proven, than the history of the Chevron B19 production numbers must be increased by one additional car, produced by the factory. I add then in my excell sheet "Register of Chevron B19`s "another line and thats it.

I do not hide anything, but I do not only answer questions because somebody who knows absolute nothing about the facts wants to impresse other people. I am absolutly open to discuss a concrete case.

My impression is that only a few owners of B19`s took all the risks to make the history of their cars public on the chevron heritage webside and to provoke the selfcalled "historians" bringing to the daylight the fakes.
But as long "historians" only say that they know some B19 for example in the Orwell Series, which are faked cars, I wonder why do they keep there secret instead of saying: the car of Mr..... Chassis No. .... is not the genuine car, because my best friend or whoever is the owner of the genuine car and all the documents to support that or I can proove it otherwise. What do they fear?

Would it not be much better, if the people who have no personell interest (because they have no car and are not member of a comittee or dealer etc.) but might have much knowledge (what not every car owner might have) tell us concrete chassis Number for Chassis number what they know before they accuse somebody else like me or Helen Malkie to hide something. I understand for example 100 % that Helen protects her archive against missuse by people who only try to worked out, where might be a loophole to bring in a new car as genuine article. I addition the Malkies are obliged to keep the information, which they may get by their customers secret. The customers themselfes only can authorize Helen or Vin to give any information concerning their cars to the public.

I am waiting for agressive replies, which show me how much they no about history of all the produced Chevron B19`s. I can then put all that information in my personell register and can start to write my next book "the truth about all Chevrons B19".

[driftwood]

I have absolutely no problem, when a second B19 No. 10 appears and it can be shown, that exactly that car is the WRA car, driven by Mr. Burton, later heavily crashed and than in the year 1971 or 1972 repaired and used afterwards as for example B19 No. 10 A (or even No. 10). If i owned chassis 10 and another appeared i would be going to see the people with my lawyer to investogate that car and if it is not correct have the plate removed- if it was correct car and my car was not correct i would then chase every owner of my car to find the truth-- If i go to the shop and ask for £100 worth of apples and they give me a bag with oranges i have teh right to a refund
If a man in italy offers a V12 ferrari engine for sale and i have delivered via DHL a V8 motor then i can sue for misdescription
same thing for Chevron B10 -71-10 car that is sold and turns out NOT to be

1 reason why people will not want all the info in the public domain is that they will be found out and with regards to Helen she will not want to be the person giving the info and then we proove the car owner has a fake car ie a crashed written off car that was rebuilt in 1984 or 95
I can walk you down the pit lane and show you the cars that are not the real McCoy and the race report of the crash and the fact the car never races again for the next 4 years yet appears by miracle 10-15 years later and guess what it is all shiney with many new parts

I have researched my car found all the races dates photos over the years and gladly give the info to anyone who is interested -I even had my car down for winning 1 important race and then last year i found magazine race report of this race and photo of winning car was NOT my car but the driver for some reason had rented a different car- now i could keep saying my car won this race ( create greater interest maybe even worth more $$) as you lot out there would take 5-10 years to find the info i have found but i like to sleep at night-- 20 years ago people could lie and cheat about cars history -make new cars claim chassis number of a write off car or 1 that was sold to Bora Bora and forgotten aboutT but the truth will come out in the end so why i hide it-

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

I am not an expert as a tax lawyer.

I have information that a second B19 No. 10 is occassionally used in the orwell series. But what can I do. I personally have nothing like a copy right or whatever. I am only a owner of a car with the same numbers on it.

Everybody is absolutely free to print numbers on chassis what ever he likes. It is getting more complicate, if he prints chassis plates with numbers for his private pleasure. It gets much more complicate, when he is saying that the chevron Company did it, because a chassis number is "a document showing an author" in the german law producing false documents is criminal.

If I take the owner of the other car to a german court, I will loose the case for 100 % sure and I think the judge made it right. The judge will tell me that I am absolutely not involved in the "other" car as long as I can proove I have the right car. When I cannot proove that I am the owner of the one and only genuine car, I will loose the case as well.

What do we learn from that example.

As the owner of the genuine car your are not protected by law, you have to protect your car (and at the end your money) yourself by having all the documentation as perfect as possible. If you buy a Chevron B19 you can ask the seller for the complete history going back say to the early seventies. If the seller can not supply you with that history you decide to buy or not to buy or you get a discount. If you get the discount than you at risk and if your are honest to yourself, you know that your car may be is not the genuine article.

In reality the people take the discount and later try to find somebody less experienced, sell him the car as the genuine article for a higher price. Bad luck for the unexperienced buyer if he forgot to ask for a guarantee.

The other thing is to protect the market. If the market is of potential buyers is as much experienced as possible, you can only very well documented cars to a high price.

Please do not understand me wrong. My B19 is only for sale through my widow, who feels that the problem with me is that I only buy cars but never sell them and will leave her at the end alone with all that old rubbish.

[driftwood]

who raced the "other" b19#10 in orwell?

Everybody is absolutely free to print numbers on chassis what ever he likes. It is getting more complicate, if he prints chassis plates with numbers for his private pleasure. Just asking to clarify your comment here your english is very good Dr A but here i have the ambiguity of our language- do you mean print info on the thread here or do you mean make ( print) new chassis plates? It gets much more complicate, when he is saying that the chevron Company did it,it may be that the factiory made an error with records this is partly what we will argue with you about- it seems to be common knowledge there are more than 1 chassis 10 plate on cars plus now we have the old pile of parts car with 10 stamped on the frame and the plate fitted to a rebuilt car ( has 10A ) and the frightening concept that this car willbe presented to get HTP papers with plate 10 or 10R /C /F? added to it because a chassis number is "a document showing an author" in the german law producing false documents is criminal.It is the same here but people have done it and will try to do it- please dont tell me that you never drive over our speed limit when you come to the UK? Ok i am joking with you here it is well known that in Germany "zis is der vay ve do zings here"

As the owner of the genuine car your are not protected by law, You will be if you can proove your car is correct and the other car is not- For example i make new Tyrrell P34 6 wheel car and fit the chassis plate of the swedish Gp winning car and then the owner of the real car who lets say has owned it since 1979 direct from ken tyrrell can show invoice bank payment and many magazine articles on his car challange sme in the court he will win and my car will be know as the replica copy fake caryou have to protect your car (and at the end your money) yourself by having all the documentation as perfect as possible.Yes and this is what we are saying openess allows this all to happen how do you know that Ralf did not make up this car from old parts and fit chassis number in late 71 with forged papers and tomorrow is old mechanic goes to the priest and makes a confession before he dies? or we find out this actually happens to 1 of the other cars claiming to be car 10 and we come and tell you this good news? this is why it is important to discuss with these "self appointed expert" historians as they talk to many people on line off line at race tracks find magazine info photos and talk about things and the info is swirling around and the jigsaw comes together in the end
If you buy a Chevron B19 you can ask the seller for the complete history going back say to the early seventies. If the seller can not supply you with that history you decide to buy or not to buy or you get a discount.well in essence yes you decide not to buy the car or spend more time doing research ( enter the "self appointed so called experts" historians to the rescue!! If you get the discount than you at risk ok what type of discount? 10% or 50%? big difference if i went to see car with no problems on fake chassi 1 owner from new car it was say worth £125k rebuilt crack tested ready to race and then i see the 5 car 10 and it is same condition BUT is £100k that to me is not a discount that is the fake car overpriced the fake car is worth half the real carand if your are honest to yourself, you know that your car may be is not the genuine article.

In reality the people take the discount and later try to find somebody less experienced, sell him the caronly a devious person will a discerning buyer will wait for the right car with history no possiblity of duplicate car) as the genuine article for a higher price. Bad luck for the unexperienced buyer if he forgot to ask for a guarantee.i had a 250GTO to sell and i had a US buyer for the car at 1 million and he had a sniff of replica car having been built with same chassi number he walked away sale lost- it turned out the info was wrong but it was too late people spending big money want "unadulterated" history but the FIA HTP system allows duplicate cars to have papers and this gives the impression the car is the real McCoy

The other thing is to protect the market.exactly and to do this we need the FIA to ban duplication of chassi number cars having papers thes ecars must carry chassi number so way off the build number list that a blind man can tell you ate 5 metrs the car is not 1 of teh original cars built at Bolton and raced in the 70`s If the market is of potential buyers is as much experienced as possible, you can only very well documented cars to a high price.it is not always about price but about getting rid if teh fake copy replica BS "air2 cars especially anything built on acar that is wellknown as destroyed and this is where transparency is required from the Chevron records they know damn well which cars died in 71 72 73 75 or wher rebuilt at the time to race again 3-8 weeks after the accident NOT 10-20 years later

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

Please understand that I will not make the name of the other car-owner with the B19 Chassis public. If I would do that I might bring other people in trouble with no use for me. That is not my intention at all.

The other car owner has all the warnings know to be very careful, when he is going to sell his car. He can know from the FIA HC Webside that a HC-Document is granted to a chassis Number 10 and he will know for sure that he is not the owner of that car. In addition he will have access to all the information given on the Chevron Heritage Webside. Furthermore I can find more information in this forum. It is his choice what he will tell a new buyer, but the times, when you could tell unproven stories about the history of a car like a chevon B19 or B 16 or B8 (or Maserati 205 F, Tyrell P34 etc) are nowadays absolute over or your are as a seller at very high risk to go be brought to court.

The FIA HC is the first trial to clear the situation but to have full grids of "historic" cars. I feel we all should be happy that they allowed with the HTP Papers continuation cars to race and gave the opportunity to stop all the lies by saying only the history of a car could only be checked to the early eighties, which says more then enough.

It does not help at all, if more people try to be accepted as an institution who can grant official papers about history of cars. In the end we have ten institutions and the value of their "certificates" will go to sero.

If somebody like Allen could convince the FIA that they better delegate the HC thing to him. No problem. I should only be avoided that somebody speaks bad about other peoples procedure as long there is no better worldwide known and accepted one.

[allenbrown]

Dr Lienau, thanks for your last few posts. I believe we are starting to reach some common ground.

I talk frequently with Jeremy Hall who runs the FIA's HC program and we get along very well. I research cars and write histories; Jeremy applies due diligence to a history and grants (or refuses) an HC. In the case of the March 741 that now has an HC, I wrote a 12-page history of the car and gave my view on its authenticity; Jeremy reviewed that, checked what he felt he needed to check and then gave the car an HC. The dossier included paragraphs on all the other 741s and 741 claimants.

I agree with you that we do not need more institutions that can grant "official papers". That should be the role of the FIA, delegated as they see fit. However, there is a need for independent researchers who can pull together all available information about a car and present it objectively so that the FIA can make a decision. That history is also relevant to buyers so objectivity is essential. That's where ORC fits into the picture.

Allen

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

Hello Allen,


thank you for your friendly words. I am happen that you understood that I will not disturb anybody and I think everybody should decide, which way he wants to go. That is applicable as well with the history of his Chevron B19 (or whatever car) as long as it is for his own private pleasure.


The FIA HC is only an offer for a documentation. You as well only make an offer for a certain kind of cars, especially single seaters. Both offers fit together and do not conflict.

If I make an application for , say a Tyrell P34, to you it will be a private thing and near nobody will ever hear, that you could not give me a "certificate". In the FIA case it is more dangerous, because they make the applications public.

Would it improve thinks for you if you as well make all the certificates public, which you already granted. Then a buyer of a car with an identical Number could be cautious if the seller could not present your certificate. Next step could be to make public who (meaning which chassis) made an application for your certificate, but you refused because there was no or not enough evidence?

My feeling is there should be a common place in the Internet where you can make your historic racing car public with the number it carries and the HTP Certificate Number and may be HC-Certificate or other certificate. It is not necessary that the name of the owner is mentioned to all, it would be sufficient if the owner of this webside would be informed to help to get the owners in personal contact if conflict about a certain chassis no. arrises (like Chevron B16 No. 35 or Chevron B19 No. ???, interestingly many below No. 10).

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Dr. Alexander Lienau

Would it improve thinks for you if you as well make all the certificates public, which you already granted. Then a buyer of a car with an identical Number could be cautious if the seller could not present your certificate. Next step could be to make public who (meaning which chassis) made an application for your certificate, but you refused because there was no or not enough evidence?

I don't do a certificate, I write a history, and in that I comment on the car's authenticity. Fortunately, so far I have been able to establish the complete history of every car I've documented but I have two in progress where I'll ending up laying out all the known facts and admitting that we cannot be certain which car this is.

As owners are paying me to research their cars - and accepting that sometimes they won't like what we find out - I would only publish the results if they agreed to it. I would like to get a few sample dossiers up on the site but I would prefer to get my customers' permission to do that.

Originally Posted by Dr. Alexander Lienau

My feeling is there should be a common place in the Internet where you can make your historic racing car public with the number it carries and the HTP Certificate Number and may be HC-Certificate or other certificate. It is not necessary that the name of the owner is mentioned to all, it would be sufficient if the owner of this webside would be informed to help to get the owners in personal contact if conflict about a certain chassis no. arrises (like Chevron B16 No. 35 or Chevron B19 No. ???, interestingly many below No. 10).

Such a website has been considered by the FIA but there are a number of logistical problems. I would be very happy to manage and operate such a site but it would be an expensive and time-consuming exercise and would require appropriate funding. If third-party funding could not be found, the alternative would be to charge people for their listing but that would reduce the proportion of people who would choose to list.

Allen

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

May be step for step. First step could be that people like the chevron Heritage webside offer for a low fee the opportunity to make the history of car public, with all the risks for the buyers that the information is not proven.

Other manufactures could join the same system by establishing a webside for "Lola`s" or Formula I cars or only cars from 1971 to 1978 (for example the masters people could ask the competitors to agree to make the chassis number public on the webside).

I think a complete register of all racing cars from 1901 to 1983 is a near impossible task. I feel the need for clarification is more in certain categories of cars beetwenn 1950 to say 1975, because that period is now adays very interesting and full with faked cars for ex: knobbly Listers, C-/D Jaguars, Ford GT 40, Lola T 70 MK 3b, Chevrons all kinds, some very special Touring cars. In the past most cars were faked not to make money but to get the old FIA papers and it should not be a problem to tell the truth as long as you accept and know, that your car is not the genuine artikel but instead "a racecar".

On the other hand there a fakes of cars with extrem high value which are produced only to fraud people for ex. Ferrari 250 SWB and GTO etc, they are so expensive that they are far out of reach of the usual trade that nobody of that kind of buyers must be protected by a public register. If you invest multimillion in car you personally have to have experience or the best adviser on earth otherwise you are gambling and should not complain if you lose your money.

As the old romans said: caviat emptor. Not the seller has to explain instead the buyer has to be careful (good old times)

[John Turner]

I have copied most of the recent posts to the general discussion thread, and will edit this one later. B19 specific posts only on this thread, please.

[helen]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I have copied most of the recent posts to the general discussion thread, and will edit this one later. B19 specific pists only on this thread, please.

John sorry to be such a dunce but where is 'the general discussion thread'?

[John Turner]

Hi, Helen,

Its on the first page of the Chassis History Archive, here:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111626

[allenbrown]

Motoring News 22 Apr 1971 p16-17 has a good report on the opening round of the European 2-litre Sports Car Series. Some usegful material here for anyone who might want to trace the B19s. Twelve were present; I've listed them in the order they are mentioned:

A. Chevron Cars: Chris Craft
B. Jo Siffert: Larrousee/Mazet (this was the original B19 as driven by Redman in South Africa).
C. DART Racing with Castrol: John Miles (the newer of DART's two B19s)
D. DART Racing with Castrol: Graham Birrell
E. Red Rose Racing: John Hine/John Bridges
F. Red Rose Racing: Redman/Attwood
G. Worcestershire Racing Association: John Burton/Peter Gaydon (brand new and 60 lbs lighter than other B19s)
H. Worcestershire Racing Association: John Bamford/Peter Creasey
I. Canon Cameras: Ed Swart/Toine Hezemans
J. Central Garage Ltd and Derek Sinfield: John Lepp/Guy Edwards
K. Sunfresh Racing Team: Cyr Febraio/Jean Ortelli
L. Scuderia Brescia Corse: Carlo Facetti/Eric Tondelli

[allenbrown]

MN 6 May 1971 p19: Red Rose to enter a third B19 for Peter Humble and Digby Maitland.

[allenbrown]

MN 27 May 1971 pp6-7: report on the second round of the European 2-litre Sports Car Series (Salzburgring 23 May). I've used lettering to indicate the changes from the R1 line-up.

A. works: Chris Craft
C. DART Racing: John Miles
D. DART Racing: Graham Birrell
E. Red Rose Racing: John Hine
F. Red Rose Racing: Niki Lauda (John Bridges' car)
G. Worcestershire Racing Association: John Burton
I. Canon Racing Team: Ed Swart
M. Siffert Automobiles Racing: Gerard Larrousse (brand new)

Note the absence of the second WRA B19 and the Central Garage Ltd B19. At the Paris GP there was a support race for sports cars and Lepp ws third in the Central Garage B19 and John Bamford fifth in a WRA B19 (MN 27 May 1971 p19)

[allenbrown]

It's also noted in MN 27 May 1971 p18 that Richard Shardlow will not be continuing with his B19 (seen only in practice at the BOAC 1000 kms) and the car is for sale.

[driftwood]

peter humble car is his own car entered by Red rose for entry form reasons/prize/start /travel money etc but car solely run by the Humbles not RRR

[allenbrown]

Silverstone 5 Jun 1971 - Round 3 (MN 10 Jun 1971 pp9-10).

A. Chevron Cars: Chris Craft
B. Peter Humble (prototype B19 ex-Redman/Larrousse)
C. DART Racing with Castrol: John Miles
D. DART Racing with Castrol: Toine Hezemans
E. Red Rose Racing: John Hine
F. Red Rose Racing: John Bridges
G. Worcestershire Racing Association: John Burton
H. Worcestershire Racing Association: John Bamford
I. Canon Racing Team: Ed Swart
J. Central Garage Ltd/Sinfield: John Lepp
M. Siffert Automobiles Racing: Gerard Larrousse

All 11 had FVCs by the way.