Chevron B16

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by p261brm

That is the problem Allen, they are getting them...

No they aren't. You are confusing two very different things. Tyrrell P34s built in the 1990s and Ferrari 312T4s built in the mid or late 1980s DO get HTPs if they are to the right spec. Tyrrell P34s built in the 1990s and Ferrari 312T4s built in the mid or late 1980s DO NOT get HCs. I know which cars have got HCs and I am quite sure that no dodgy F1 cars have got HCs. Lots of dodgy F1 cars have got HTPs.

This is why OldRacingCars.com started doing dossiers on cars - to fully document a car's history. Unfortunately, we got so overwhelmed with requests that I am now months behind on production of them.

[p261brm]

We are at cross purposes I think Allen, some where we have ended up with F1 cars in a discussion about Chevron B16's probably my fault for not removing the reference to them when including the original quote. I was referring to Chevron B16's receiving papers when they most defintely are nothing of the sort, or being given provenance for a particular chassis number. B16's built after the demise of Chevron by who ever thinks or says he is Chevron Cars is not as far as I am concerned a problem. It is the original 23 cars said to be built and provenance claimed for a particular car.

[driftwood]

You guys have been chatty tonight so playing catch up
Henk the B16 cum 19 is a different car to the B16/19-23 Tucket Fletcher car an dis in B19 format
I am fully aware of the Tucket car and as far as i can recall is a prime exmaale of a Chevron that has been used in 2-4 formats and more importantly it is still retained by the same owner for 37 years
SO lets use that car for the argument
It is well known as a B16 car and raced for 1 season then it was rebuilt (due to rule changes) to B19 spec and raced for 3 years in B19 21 23 spec in many events
Dilema 1 is it a B19-23 spec car as it did more races in that set up
or Dilema 2 is it still really a B16?
I would like to know to help settle this specific car argument what plate Tucket/Fletcher had on the car once the roof was of the car

The car i was discussing with the prep shop man was a B16 shunted in period then rebuilt ( not at the factory) into a B19- sadly i have no more info on its race history as a B19 to see where it can fit in but it does not have the Chevron plate fitted which may make us all squint at it BUT allegedly period fotos of the car shunted and being rebuilt will give it credibilty

Regarding the other B16 into 19 /21 cars it would be great to have period observations of the cars at events to nail things down ie did they surrender their B16 plates and get B19 or 21 plates fitted
also did the B19 cars get new B21 plates fitted ie the red rose team cars B19 07 08 really run as b19 plated cars with 21 body or B21 plated

HC & HTP
who gives the car the HC FIA or Chevron lola reps? If it is FIA is it 1 man who agrees the lineage or a committee?

with regards to ORC.com dossiers I read a brabham f1 dossier the other day had comprehensive info on that car
im not knockng you here but have you had FIA reject a cars data or or withdraw its papers later due to some new info that crops up?
How does a car owner challange another car owner who has the duplicate chassis plate & number (sadly it seems to be Chevrons that fall into this category! )-Pistols at dawn or do we get 3 wisemen to pour over each cars lineage?
to me its a no brainer if the car has no 1975-85 ish history its a faker

The crazy thing is the cars prices
a good clean well maintained B19 makes £85-100k?
B16 are double for what is essentially the same pile of parts that go into the car with a roof yet the B16 had possibly 1 of the shortest racing careers of its time and the B19-23 raced for 4 years in euro c/ships plus another 4 years in WCM LM events plus usa Can am 2 litre Interserie and countless years on EEC mountain c/ships

The "new" cars i see 1 new "Vin" built B16 for sale in USA at around £100k and that is where it should be priced at not making the same ££ a the REAL 1 of the original run of B16 cars
I think many owners will soon regret paying the silly money for B16
Back to P261 BRM last comment
lets have all the B16 cars with a chassis number of the original 23 built cars inspected with lineage info AS reports adverts for sale race results letters from previous owners listing who they sell car to all thoroughly inspected and then have plates removed and re stamped with R after the number or re numbered in the 40s if they cannot substantiate their claim so we can see all the fakers

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

lets have all the B16 cars with a chassis number of the original 23 built cars inspected with lineage info AS reports adverts for sale race results letters from previous owners listing who they sell car to all thoroughly inspected and then have plates removed and re stamped with R after the number or re numbered in the 40s if they cannot substantiate their claim so we can see all the fakers

could the highlight of the day, in case we will celebrate a 50 years of Chevron in six years time.....admission only if willing to be subjected to originality test...

[p261brm]

In a discussion with Peter Smith and Trevor Twaites last night a very poignant remark was made by Trevor " "what the hell is all the fuss about? most of the owners of today's so called very genuine cars have modified them out of all recognition from when we ran them" and in that I'm afraid he is very right

[John Turner]

Which isn't the point; they have provenance; continuation cars don't. It's all about continuous traceable history. Continuation cars are not historic; they are new. Some people care about these things; others don't!

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Which isn't the point; they have provenance; continuation cars don't. It's all about continuous traceable history. Continuation cars are not historic; they are new. Some people care about these things; others don't!

Agree John, I care, thats why I got involved in this discussion, the good times, slept in them, under them, ate and drank using them as a table, and the current owners did not buy those memories along with those of others of my ilk. I get very annoyed that original owners spent the time they did restoring and keeping a car over a long period of time to part company with it when it is no longer viable to keep it, the 'improvements' make it now no longer the car that earnt the provenance; the very point Trevor Twaites was making.

[henk4]

During the recent Monterey Historic Roy Walzer brought his B16 Spyder out, and I took the opportunity to discuss the car with him. According to Roy the car was an original coupe and then cut off. He says he has all the papers that prove that. The quintessential question though, which coupe it was exactly, he could not answer.....Interestingly his car is painted in the same dark red/brownish colour as the coupe that did the Ring 500 in 1969. (A model of that can be obtained through Jorg Obermoser of TOJ fame). Can anybody positively identify which coupe was used in 1969?

[driftwood]

Chassis numbers acredited to Chevron racing cars are
DBE 16- 1 and 2 4 10 26
# 1 was reported to be in Arizona in 1985
#2 was John Bridges
#4 went to Brain robinson now with Laidlaw
10 was written off in Germany
26 had BMW fitted

its possible and highly likely they built up another car instead of cutting off the roof of a coupe
perhaps we need to read the roof cutting exercise as a figure of speech

[Alan Brown]

Presumably not sold at the Bonhams auction at the Goodwood Revival meeting was this 1982 B16.

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/publi...aleSectionNo=2

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

Presumably not sold at the Bonhams auction at the Goodwood Revival meeting was this 1982 B16.

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/publi...aleSectionNo=2

In the catalogue the car is listed as Chassis #18.....

[driftwood]

I dont think it did sell-a sign of these times non original cars not making the money?

Lawrence Jacobsonwhen he owned Chevron used number 018 built 1983

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I dont think it did sell-a sign of these times non original cars not making the money?

Lawrence Jacobsonwhen he owned Chevron used number 018 built 1983

could be same car, although the catalogue states it is a 1982 built car, (by Chevron using original components...) If that were to be the case, why did Chevron (like Lola) not continue with the numbering sequence they already had? So this car could have been #39 or #40 or so.

[driftwood]

i think they took the early number to slip under the radar

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i think they took the early number to slip under the radar

I wish somebody from that "generation" of Chevron builders would come out here and simply admit that.

[driftwood]

why fit a plate to a car with a number over 32? there where 5 numbers not used so easier to use 1 of them

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

why fit a plate to a car with a number over 32? there where 5 numbers not used so easier to use 1 of them

Seeing as Derek Bennett never used certain numbers for his chassis adding an extra one at the end may well be a better way to slip in a contemporary chassis?

[henk4]

Chassis DBE-019 is now offered for sale in London, as the Eris Tondelli car. I did see it in Monza earlier this year, with a BMW engine when it participated in the CER race.
However, is this the real car or is the real car chassis DBE-019, owned by Jose Albuquerque (last seen during the 2006 LeMans classic) or are these two cars the same one? It is, given the discussions regarding B16s almost hilarious to note that in one publication the car is offered as a 1970 car, while the website link notes the car as built in 1971.

[driftwood]

only way to know is to ask Fisken if it is JA car

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

only way to know is to ask Fisken if it is JA car

why do you also come up with posts that make me immediately loose my command of the English language? In short what does JA (apart from "yes" in dutch) stand for?

[allenbrown]

JA = Jose Albuquerque I'd guess.

[allenbrown]

Pieter - your command of the English language is much better than Drifty's

[driftwood]

Henk JA !!!!!!!!!!!

Allen HUH???

[henk4]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

JA = Jose Albuquerque I'd guess.

you might be correct
Unfortunately Jose has suffered severe heart problems and is no longer racing (at least until recently). but the Fisken car won Tour Britannia in 2006 (if I am not mistaken) and JA raced his car, together with Mighty Mouse, in 2006 both at Silverstone and the LMC....

[p261brm]

B16 DBE 21 consructed 1970 sold to America at present in UK and for sale, Believe another car in USA claiming to be same car. Any provenance greatly appreciated via private message?