HANS Devices - Discussion from Andy Neate thread.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Victer Meldrew

I totally agree with the argument that they are too expensive and a rip off.

Ok who do YOU work for and what do YOU produce? and what is that cost to the consumer? and what is YOUR PROFIT MARGIN?

Obesity is associated with many illnesses and is directly related to increased mortality and lower life expectancy. Tackling obesity is a government wide priority..

Sorry Wrong attitude. It is not a Government problem. it is an Individuals responsibility for their own health.

Remember when you hear or read these famous words, " I am from the Government. I am here to Help."

Run

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by JamesH

There is a lot more than £5 profit in a rain light. Design and test is trivial, quality control nowadays is greatly reduced (I know), manufacture, even in the UK would be low, and China very low indeed. Transport costs in bulk pretty low. Only big number is E mark or FIA homologation.

I don't agree. These things take time, and therefore take money. The quantity of sales is quite small, so the cost savings of mass production are limited.

Originally Posted by JamesH

Agreed. Niche product. Not sure I agree about high research costs, and I would expect they were paid for long ago (Probably by the FIA or NASCAR), with only minor changes from the original design. Manufacture - Can't seeing it costing> £50 to make. Probably at first, but they should gave got the hang of it by now, and really got the costs price down. New injection moulded version needs quite a chunk of up front cost for the mould, so in a way, that shoud cost more than the current CF version!

Carbon pre-preg isn't cheap, and neither are vacuum autoclaves. The material cost, even bought in bulk, will be a lot more than £50, and I suspect it would be layed up by hand (labour intensive). An injection mould (or moulds) do have a high initial cost, which is why the price remains high, but I think we'll see that cost fall much more quickly than the carbon version.

Originally Posted by JamesH

You need to sort out your manufacturing then!

That's why we don't make stuff like this. We work at the one-off level of fabrication

But you need to understand that making things isn't as cheap as you might think until you get into the realms of very high quantities, which is why cars or computer memory are so cheap.

[Victor Meldrew]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Good for you JamesH and who is Victer Medrew anyhow (wearing a bit thin that one isn't it), do tell us please unless of course as I suspect you post on here in your real name as well.

Victor Meldrew......if you'd been at the Meldrew Challenge at Brands last month you would have seen me driving the Meldrew Pacecar.

Back to HANS pricing......

Like anything it ought to be value for money; guess the question at the moment would be, is £500 value for money? In some ways, yes it is when put against the possible worst scenario outcome, however, although I made the decision to buy one a couple of years ago, I still can't help feeling that it is priced way too high and that something should be done about that.

On the subject of debating whether HANS should become mandatory at all levels of motorsport, whilst that would engender some interesting discussion I doubt it would derive much more. Is it not, whether we agree with it or not, the case that as organisers, governing bodies, part of their role is to protect competitors from themselves? Left to us it would not happen (would rollcages, crash helmets etc either?) thus I fear mandating would be the only way. Whether of course this would ever happen, how much notice, at what price point, will HANS ever be 'lifed' in the same way as helmets then becomes the subject of discussion.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Victor Meldrew

Victor Meldrew......if you'd been at the Meldrew Challenge at Brands last month you would have seen me driving the Meldrew Pacecar.

If you read the post it's aimed at Victer Meldrew not Victor Meldrew so that makes one or two of you hiding behind a pseudonym.

[Al Weyman]

Thank you Tim, the point I was trying to make.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

But, of course, once you had the thing tested to conform to various standards (be they in house standards, EU electrical safety standards, FIA standards or whatever it might be), paid someone to make it, someone to do quality control, someone to design it, someone to package it, someone to transport it, made a little bit of profit and allowed the reseller to make a little bit of profit you VERY quickly get to bigger numbers.

And don't forget the product liability insurance whiuch, being a US designed product for a perceived dangerous activity is probably vast!

[Al Weyman]

Are they going to give us a refund then if it don't work!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Are they going to give us a refund then if it don't work!

Isnt the refund the same for failed Parachutes ?

[Al Weyman]

Thats the one!

[Alan Cherry]

Questions Gents
My current Tin Hat has mountings for Hans clips/posts. If I buy the hans device, I see that MSAR sell the helmet clips for £50.00 - can I fit them myself, or do I need a factory approved dealer to fit them - and where are they ? OMP Tin Hat.

Thanks
Alan

p.s. I'm allowed to fit my own steering and brakes !

[tristancliffe]

Does your helmet have the HANS posts fitted, or just drillings to accept them?

[RF_Racer]

There are a few ways this can be done, I can onlhy give an example about Arai. If you want them to be eligable under FIA rules you have to get Arai to fit them, otherwise for UK/ MSA use GP racewear can do them.

[AU N EGL]

The HANS device comes with instruction on how to measure where the holes should go, how to drill the holes and insert the posts.

If you can read directions and work with a drill. Your good to go.



Oh wait? are you an engineer or race car driver? we dont follow directions too well....... We just do it.



LOL

You be fine

[Al Weyman]

My helmet has little chrome blanking bungs where presumably the studs would go and was sold as 'Hans Ready'. Surely I would not have to pay someone to screw a couple of studs in would I?

[midgetman]

Oh, they've covered that...........ISTR you have to have a little FIA sticker put on to show they've been professionally fitted.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Manufacture - Can't seeing it costing> £50 to make. Probably at first, but they should gave got the hang of it by now, and really got the costs price down.

It looks a very labour-intensive product; that being the case, manufacturing costs aren't going to change much irrespective of how long it's in production...unless they move production to a low-wage location.

New injection moulded version needs quite a chunk of up front cost for the mould, so in a way, that shoud cost more than the current CF version!

The cost of the tooling will be spread over total sales. It's a commercial risk you take - sales more than forecast, you win, sales less than forecast, you lose. Sales forecasting isn't an exact science - I remember tooling up for product which sold around 3% of its forecast sales!

[Alan Cherry]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Does your helmet have the HANS posts fitted, or just drillings to accept them?

It has the holes with plastic plugs in - If you look in the Demon Thieves catalogue, it's on page 105 - The Jet 3.5 - It hasn't got the Hans posts at present, but is sold "Supplied pre-drilled to accommodate Hans posts"

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Alan Cherry

Questions Gents
My current Tin Hat has mountings for Hans clips/posts. If I buy the hans device, I see that MSAR sell the helmet clips for £50.00 - can I fit them myself, or do I need a factory approved dealer to fit them - and where are they ? OMP Tin Hat.

Dunno if they still do it, but when I bought my HANS from Demon Tweeks I sent my GP5K to them (pre-drilled but with no posts) and they fitted posts to it, stuck in a compliance sticker and sent me a conformity certificate as part of the supply of the HANS. May have helped that I'd previously bought the lid from them as well, but I thought that was pretty good service.

[Peter Mallett]

If you want to do any FIA races you'll need to have them factory fitted. I bought my helmet from DT and they offered two options. First as you say, "dealer fitted" which complies with MSA regs, or Factory fitted for FIA regs. I had mine fitted by the factory it's an OMP helmet.

[Eddy V]

Factory or dealer fitted, (only registered qualified dealers for that matter), they have to put the FIA sticker or it is not valid for any FIA race or any race at Spa and some other tracks.
Each sticker comes with it's own serial number so they can check if it is the corresponding helmet. But I doubt they will ever check that.

[bdwoody]

so you can bolt the wheels on ,fit the seat and the belts and the fire extinguisher yourself but cant fit a couple of tiny posts to the side of your helmet unless you are from the factory ?they must have some megga qualifications for that job phd,bachelor of post fitting etc....!sad

[tristancliffe]

Or it could be that wheel torques have a large range of acceptable values, so if Mr Muggins gets it wrong it probably won't end in disaster, whereas the exposed innards of a helmet might be more delicate and requiring of care (and training).

You can fit the seatbelt yourself, but you're not allowed to make it. You can fit the fire extinguisher yourself, but you're not allowed to service it. You can etc but you're not allowed to etc etc.

If you don't like it, then don't use HANS. It's your choice. Vote with your feet (as it were).

[Al Weyman]

How many stickers do you want? :-)

[Eddy V]

I know Al.
Problem is that should they ever bother to check their list and it does not list that helmet for that certain driver. Oh dear. Silly and sad, I know.
Seems that the Germans are a bit to blame for this, as every guy started drilling holes in helmets and there were some "incidents".

[Victor Meldrew]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

I know Al.
Problem is that should they ever bother to check their list and it does not list that helmet for that certain driver. Oh dear. Silly and sad, I know.
Seems that the Germans are a bit to blame for this, as every guy started drilling holes in helmets and there were some "incidents".

Don't tell me, they drilled holes whilst wearing the helmet