ParityParityParityParity

[1200Datto27]

I konw, how about we resolve this parity issue once and for all next year, and have all of the Ford and Holden teams swap makes, then we will find out where it is the car or the team.

[tiko]

deeks you just dont get it. We all know Tratty is no Mark Skaife or Marcos Ambrose, However, as mentioned previously, Trattys BA was nothing flash, very unreliable and wasnt set up well at all. To judge parity off Anthony Tratts performance you are just kidding yourself. With a car being run out of Perkins Motorsport, and probably a topline race engineer from Perkins Motorsport on the car. Again, as Richards results have proved this year, Perkins Motorport have their act together and are doing a decent job.

But the one, plain and simple fact you are ignorantly ignoring is the fact that, as was demonstrated on the weekend, a Ford can win races and a round victory. And infact their were 2 Fords in the top 4. You just dont want to get the fact that obviously SBR are doing a better job than everyone in V8Supercar. When SBR win, they dominate, and incase you didnt realise they use Fords. Now if one Ford can win, then without one single bit of doubt, then other Fords can win. If you think this isnt the case then I think you should go watch the Olympics or something because you are blatently turning a blind eye.

Let me reiterate the major point:
A FORD FALCON BA has, can and will win races and rounds in V8supercar in season 04. If one Falcon can win then every single Falcon can. That is the bottom line.

[lcfp2297]

Originally posted by deeks6
Yes, it's totally impalusible that the car he is driving would be EASIER to set up and drive quick than the one he got out of. Strange that....
With all due respect to Tratty, if an "ordinary" driver can go a second or more faster by changing makes, thats a warning siren.
However, when "good" drivers like Lowndes and, more recently, Bargwanna are struggling, then the alarm bells are ringing.
Just because the Stone Bros are outstanding shouldnt even affect the argument...again, THAT was your argument against "penalising" HRT for their 5 year dominance.

No, if you look at things through the red goggles, everyhting is about to get good again. Bright will win the ATCC, Holden will win Bathurst and the Ford teams are just "not good enough". Lowndes just can't cut it any more.

Deeks,

Tratty no doubt gets set-up information from Perkins this year, last year he plucked it from where???

Bargwanna struggling??? Fair enough in the AU, but he was not consitantly in the top 10 in a GRM Commodore (in 01/02) like he is in a LMS BA...Looking at the results is extremely unfair...Bargs has been punted off at more races this year than almost every other driver...

Everybody struggled in a FPR and 00 prepped BA...but Lowndes was semi-competitive in a GMS AU...

We all know the AU was an inferior race car for any distance longer than around 15 min or 10 laps (depending on circuit), so lets just stick to the BA era...

[deeks6]

Originally posted by tiko
deeks you just dont get it.

No, I've finally got it...

Things are dead equal.

Not doing a good job:

- BJR ... despite having one of the acknowleged best development drivers and a team who dominated super tourers. Have built a V8 capable of bathurst pole and their. Just had their engine man poached ... go figure. Who would want a dud like that?
- 888 ... despite dominating BTCC. Also have the services of SBR engineer. Must be just hopeless drivers...yes, an ex World Touring / BTCC Champ and a guy who tested F1 ... no good, I tell you.
- Orrcon ... despite taking one of Holden's best drivers and also being capable of putting a car on pole at Bathurst. Using SBR engines (oops, they really are making a mess of it).
- DJR ... 7 ATCC's and a few Bathursts tought these guys nothing. Since the AU, they have just lost the plot!
- Craig Lowndes. Amazingly, he is competitive in the toughest conditions (wet), but he just can't drive anymore in the dry. Sad
- Jason Bargwanna. Despite being a star and regular winner with Holden, he also has lost all of his ability overnight.
- Russell Ingall. Has'nt lost as much as the other 2 but used to have a mortgage on 2nd in ATCC and win more races. Nowhere near as good anymore.

Gee, those dopes need to get their act together:

Doing a great job:

Paul Weel - despite being a backmarker with Ford, has discovered ability now. Must be learning from another ex-Ford man in the team who discovered how to win a lot more races after he left none other than SBR.
Anthony Tratt - improved a second or more a lap just this year - deserves an award fgr that sort of improvement.
Team Dynamik - despite sponsorship and driver upheaval manage to consistently be amongst the fastest cars. Curiously, were the first team to have a full-spec VY.

I tell you, when you put those FACTS to me and lent me your red goggles, it all just becomes crystal clear. I just "did'nt get it" ...

[deeks6]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
We all know the AU was an inferior race car for any distance longer than around 15 min or 10 laps (depending on circuit), so lets just stick to the BA era...

Did you watch Oran Park?

SBR aside, do you really think all those other Ford teams are THAT bad? Do you really think that Simon Wills is a 7/10 faster driver than Russell Ingall? Are Skaifey and Toddler 1/2 a second a lap better drivers than Ambrose? And they were in the "gun" Fords.

The last few rounds have shown a very marked trend. Unfortunately, Blind Freddie can't or won't see it. Well, at least until after another 4 or 5 titles go by.

[lcfp2297]

How about YOU watching the race instead of the leader board. And just for the record, I follow Seton and Lowndes...I suggest you take your blue glasses off!

Most Ford Teams have great straight line speed, no good around corners (watch the handling)THAT AND THAT alone is why they can put it on pole at Bathurst, but it is also their downfall for a race win at Bathurst, because the lack of handling around corners chews tyres etc...

Just WHAT IS the common denominator? I think we could safely suggest Beehag...what Ford teams don't use Beehag? The ones that are quick over a full race distance...

HMS, PMM, CPR have well sorted chassis...who uses these chassis, HRT, PWR, KRT, PMM, TKR, CPR, RNR, Toll! TD's chassis isn't too bad either.

Aerodynamics are the same, engine/drivetrain are the same, suspension is the same...chassis is the difference...

How about the Ford teams pull their finger out and build their own chassis/roll cage instead of buying an off-the-shelf racer...that's what FF, Aussie Racers etc is for!

[Grimace]

Originally posted by Luke Plaizier
It's not about the technology, it's not about how good the teams are at setting the cars up, it's about PARITY - all teams being given a fair go. Looking at qualifying alone, it would appear that a 0.5 sec adjustment is required to even up the field. Then we'd see a true 50/50 spread, and not the 17/83 spread we have now.

The rules are so tight. You can't move your rear suspension pickup points by more than 1mm. You have limited choice in engines and components (some more than others, but I digress). Your wiring harness must conform to a standard.

It's the RULES that are determining the outcomes now more than the teams or drivers. The Holden boys will defend any rule that provides an advantage, and I don't blame them.

And to their credit, we didn't hear much about parity in 2003 - but that was probably because there were still a bunch of Holdens in with a fighting chance of winning the championship up until the VERY LAST RACE. That's a sign that Parity is doing it's job.

A long hard look at what the parity rules are doing will show that they aren't achieving their objective this year - for whatever reason.

And when that happens, I think the fans have a right to be VERY vocal.


Lukeyson

LUKE CONGRATULATIONS

YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT PERFECTLY in your first paragraph
a 0.5 (or thereabouts) is needed by the Falcons to maintain
a 50/50 spread of makes in this true PARITY FORMULA.

17/83 as you say does not make true parity!

One Falcon at/or near the front DOES NOT MAKE EQUAL PARITY

REMEMBER "AN ADJUSTMENT" WAS Soooo close at Winton...that says how much difference there is between makes overall!

[deeks6]

Originally posted by lcfp2297
Most Ford Teams have great straight line speed, no good around corners (watch the handling)THAT AND THAT alone is why they can put it on pole at Bathurst, but it is also their downfall for a race win at Bathurst, because the lack of handling around corners chews tyres etc...

Just WHAT IS the common denominator? I think we could safely suggest Beehag...what Ford teams don't use Beehag? The ones that are quick over a full race distance...

HMS, PMM, CPR have well sorted chassis...who uses these chassis, HRT, PWR, KRT, PMM, TKR, CPR, RNR, Toll! TD's chassis isn't too bad either.

Aerodynamics are the same, engine/drivetrain are the same, suspension is the same...chassis is the difference...

Well done...you have single - handedly summed up exactly why there should be an adjustment. 4 completely different Holden teams/constructors build a chassis and ALL of them are competitive...hmmm

Lets not forget that the SBR cars are also driven by 2 of the best race drivers that this country has produced and they have been competitive because they (especially Ambrose) have just made less mistakes that most other drivers. Their race lap speed was a long way behind many of the Commodores at OP. Look, when Dale Brede's fastest lap is the same as Ingall and Tratt is just 3/10 slower ... Hueston, we have a problem. But, conveniently, it won't even be looked at until AFTER the showpiece (Bathurst). They have printed their "5 in a Row" posters already.

Take 2003 - despite all the Holden teams having to build and sort new cars, 2 of them could have won the title at the last round AND there were more of them at the pointy end than Fords.

Fast forward to 04 - Still only SBR competitive from Ford and even more Holdens at the pointy end. The lap is speed differential grows each meeting. Take out SBR and the average lap speed of Holden vs Ford assumes ridiculous proportions. The HRT and PWR (and probably the TD) cars are clearly much faster than the SBR cars...when they have a mistake-free weekend, even Ambrose and Ingall have no hope.

[mmciau]

Deeks6,
It may well be that SBR alone have developed a chassis that is so torsionally superior that any other Ford frame.

I watch with great respect to the SBR bods that have those cars' chassis "dancing" through the various turns with the suspensions working so superbly.

For some reason best known to others, the other Ford frames don't work as "smoothly".



Mike

And I'm from the red side

[lcfp2297]

Deeks, that is oversimplifying...

Yes 4 Holden builders have got it right...but 2 have it wrong...

Only 1 Ford builder has it wrong...Beehag...

And I should point out, at this point in time the chassis is fairly open...are you suggesting a "common" chassis/roll cage? Because the mistake in that approach is the torsional ridgidity of the base car...

Lets get some facts about 2003...SBR were the only team out of the three title contenders that had an all-new car for the ENTIRE season...and even if hypothetically they did have new cars for the whole season, HRT arguably have the best chassis builders/sorters from the red side and supply KRT...Hence THEIR domination over so many years...

Next piece of swiss cheese...

[Dazz]

None of this explains why Murph's 2:06 Bathurst car cannot even cut it this year?

Parity is a moving target, track to track, car to car, driver to driver.

When the gap between the front and back of the grid is less than one second across 32 cars built by greatly varying teams and driven by drivers of differing abilities, then the gap at the front is almost miniscule.

Even with the AU, Stone Brothers were consistantly at the front, and wasn't Bright one of the few guys to win in a Ford with an SBR car a few years ago?

It does seem that SBR have something that the other teams don't have, what it is who knows, but it is a big factor in their cars speed no doubt.

[sizzle]

Originally posted by Dazz
None of this explains why Murph's 2:06 Bathurst car cannot even cut it this year?

I think you can reliably attribute the 2:06 to the engine. Why do you think Skaife was upset having to use the aurora, they had to give the lightweight 18 deg to KMart.

[Dazz]

An engine alone does not give you a 2:06.

That car was also untouchable all day, and not just in a straight line.

[lcfp2297]

An engine alone does not produce a 2:06...it is the entire package, remove one component and you don't have the package anymore...the 18 degree engines must conform to minimum weight rules too.

[Dazz]

A question for the parity police .............

If the cars are all made equal, then how do you grid them up when they all do exactly the same qualifying time?

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Dazz
A question for the parity police .............

If only there were some ...

[tiko]

deeks its not that hard to realise. SBR have proved they can win races and indeed championships withthe current FORD FALCON BA. It is obvious that the other Ford teams just arent doing a good enough job. Simple as that, no ifs, and no buts.

[Techo]

tiko

[deeks6]

Don't get me wrong...Holden deserve it. if Ford put as much time and effort and money that Holden does, perhaps things would be different.
Holden are way more political, provide the bulk of the stewards, influence the boards and obviously care more about winning. They even hijacked a Sports Car race, for chrissake, to get publicity.
Ford would be better off just pulling the pin and leaving it as a one-make series. Most motor sport fans would still watch it - in fact, it would probably be more interesting - and it would remove all the argument about so-called parity

[tiko]

deeks really great attitude. Just be gratious in defeat and accept that a Ford can/has and will win races in V8Supercar with their current BA Falcon. And because a Ford is winning then obviously another Ford can, its just a matter of time. Hopefully one day you wil lrealise this, because i'm sure most others will.

[Grimace]

Originally posted by pigsy
Parity it's a joke, there is none. Take a look at the results.
Race 1 3 Fords in the top 11
Race 2 2 Fords in the top 12

Ok TEGA run your little formula over todays results and tell Ford they haven't been dudded.
Oh that's right you did that for the last race and now there won't be any change until after Bathurst ..... I can see it now .... Holden win Bathurst for a record 7th consecutive time.

pIGSY ..Y O U A R E R I G H T!!!!!
yOUR LAST SENTENCE WILL HAPPEN WITH NO ADJUSTMENT BEFORE BATHURST -7TH FOR HOLDEN -JUST WATCH!!!

[deeks6]

Originally posted by tiko
deeks really great attitude. Just be gratious in defeat and accept that a Ford can/has and will win races in V8Supercar with their current BA Falcon. And because a Ford is winning then obviously another Ford can, its just a matter of time. Hopefully one day you wil lrealise this, because i'm sure most others will.

Is there a B-side to this record? The A-side is stuck...

[Grimace]

Originally posted by deeks6
Well done...you have single - handedly summed up exactly why there should be an adjustment. 4 completely different Holden teams/constructors build a chassis and ALL of them are competitive...hmmm

Lets not forget that the SBR cars are also driven by 2 of the best race drivers that this country has produced and they have been competitive because they (especially Ambrose) have just made less mistakes that most other drivers. Their race lap speed was a long way behind many of the Commodores at OP. Look, when Dale Brede's fastest lap is the same as Ingall and Tratt is just 3/10 slower ... Hueston, we have a problem. But, conveniently, it won't even be looked at until AFTER the showpiece (Bathurst). They have printed their "5 in a Row" posters already.

Take 2003 - despite all the Holden teams having to build and sort new cars, 2 of them could have won the title at the last round AND there were more of them at the pointy end than Fords.

Fast forward to 04 - Still only SBR competitive from Ford and even more Holdens at the pointy end. The lap is speed differential grows each meeting. Take out SBR and the average lap speed of Holden vs Ford assumes ridiculous proportions. The HRT and PWR (and probably the TD) cars are clearly much faster than the SBR cars...when they have a mistake-free weekend, even Ambrose and Ingall have no hope.

SO TRUE WHATS WRITTTEN ABOVE .SO TRUE AND EVEN THE HOLDEN GUYS KNOW IT- THEY HAVE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE AND WITH NO PARITY ADJUSTMENT GRANTED AFTER WINTON

BATHURST IS L O S T TO FORD -ITS LOST BEFORE WE GET THERE

HRT,KRT, PWR WILL CREAM THE FASTEST(WHAT A JOKE!) FALCONS
IN THE ENDUROS

[Grimace]

Originally posted by Dazz
An engine alone does not give you a 2:06.

That car was also untouchable all day, and not just in a straight line.

TRUE!

WELL GUYS ENJOY>>"The one make Enduro series" starts 10/9/04
HOLDEN, HOLDEN AND GUESS WHATHOLDEN

[tiko]

Grimace, if you believe that HRT,PWR * KRT will dominate the enduros hen why should Holden teams like Team Dynamik, and Castrol Perkins be penalised for their rivals good performances? In the same way why should Ford teams; BJR,888,FPR be given an advantage because they havent got their act together? SBR have proved Fords can win.