Spectator interest

[David L]

Originally Posted by rdjones

As some people may or may not know, aswell as being a big sportscar fan, I am a big fan of the BTCC aswell. This year I have been to 9 out of the 10 BTCC rounds and ever meeting I would say the crowd was somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 and I understand there where 33,000 people at Silverstone for the last round of the year, a) because they where charging £15 to get in and b) because there was a free ticket offer in the TOCA Race Driver 3 Computer Game.

They also have good TV package and the cirucits promote the meetings,

They also have much more of a "show" to present to the casual fan..

I am a big fan of WTCC for that reason.. It's a show.. top class flat out sprint racing.. it's got manufacturers (albeit that some will have a lessor presence this coming year).. lots of action and there's something to sell..

[Adam43]

Can (and more importantly should) that be translated into endurance racing though? It is more about the achievement, the adventure and the exercise in endurance racing. Think back to the glory days of Sportscar racing, was it a forced show then? Yes the world has changed, but there is no need to turn it into another WTCC because we already have a WTCC. Can endurance racing be changed to suit the modern day fan with a short attention span? By definition no, and if you try then you destroy what it was in the first place.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by David L

. I really do not think that the product itself is capable of being a substantial draw..

Times change. PPL like one thing for several years then move on. The automotive industy is changing rapidly as well. Look at the new F1 technical rules for the next five years; less aero, engery recovery, lower rpms, etc. the automotive industry is moving for conusmer demands. So racing needs to follow suit.

Here in my state there is a new race & test track being planned specificly for alternative fuels / energy sources. http://www.avrnc.com/index.htm

Consumers ideas of what type of car changes too as well as entertainment. Sports for better or worse is entertainment, be it footie or motorsports, it is entertainmnet. PPLs work and family demands change as well and that affects the needs and abilties for entertainment.

Who are the spectators and the demographics? In Europe, I really dont know. In the states ALMS had an indpedent study done about a year ago and again this past summer. Not too suprising, but upper middle class ppl with an avarage house hold income of $90,000 USD and average age over 40 years old, upper middle managment, Professional services, MDs, Attornies, Accountants and many small business owners. Drives affluent sports cars of the brands that are raced at the events.
Huge Porsche owners following. And Audi, BMW, Corvette, Mazda, Ferrari / Maseratti ownes as well.

Grand Ams following seems to be split between the above and the NASCAR audiance.

Knowing ones audience and spectators IMHO is very important for promoting or putting on a show. Marketing these events are target to these ppl or potential spectators.

So no, it would not be the bloke off the street who comes to these events.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by David L

There seems to be a general presumption in the thread, a misnomer in my opinion, that there is a sizable body of people out there who would come along to watch Sportscar and GT racing if only things were a little different.. kind of a "Field of Dreams" scenario.. where Kevin Costner is told "if you build it, they will come"..

But haven't we ignored the sale and demand issue.. surely some people have already thought of this before us.. done the maths.. made a few forward projections.. and come to the conclusion that it just isn't so.. There really isn't a sufficient fan base out there to make it work as a spectator event.. never really has been.. never really will be.. ...

I think you have to differentiate sportscar racing (other than Le Mans itself) from F1, NASCAR and Moto GP.

These series are on a different level to regular motosport, just like Manchester United are to every other Premiership club.

What we (I) am saying is the current organisors are not promoting/selling sportscar racing to to those that care, nevermind the wider public.

Everyong harls back to Group C and the large crowds at Brands etc., but I remember there being 30,000+ for the BPR GT race in '96, there were 25-30,000 at Silverstone in 96,97,98 for BPR/FIA GT.

Donington had a larger promotion with John Guest in 2003 with a crowd of 30-35,000, in previous years there were less than 10,000!!!!

I'm not expecting F1 rivalling crowds, but an LMS event should be capable of dragging in 25,000 with a little planning ahead. Once you have that fan base in place you can build, as the ALMS does.

The problem is simply momentum and a lack of confidence to invest in promotion. BPR GT, followed by FIA GT built crowds upto the 25-30,000 level by 96/07/98. When the old GT1's were scrapped FIA GT lost it's appeal, investmet from manufactuers and sponsors crowds slumped, while the prototype alternaticve, the FIA SCC was even worse.

The LMS is the first sportscar series that delivers the goods on track since Group C/BPR GT, it deserves to been promoted.

As for the BTCC, I've been when there was 50,000+ at the TOCA shoot-out with Mansell and co, been to Oulton Park with 40,000 on a Bank Holiday, but in recent years 20,000 has been the average, which Oulton Parks Bank Holiday British GT meeting matched this year.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by David L

...
1989 in general was great for sportscars.. Not just Brands, but Donington also had a fair old turn out and a decent race..

Which brings us to an interesting thought.. '89 Brands had, I think, 25 cars in the top class of an FIA World Championship, 8 manufacturers.. with, what, something like 40 entries at times.. and, as you say, there was superb entertainment.. So I ask myself, there’s all of that and there’s still "only" 25,000 people turning out...

I had a book that states Brands crowd in 89 was more like 40,000, 30,000 or so at Donington, and 25-30,000 at Silverstone in the late 80's.

I recall Moto GP only had 30,000 or so at Donington few years back before Moto GP exploded.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by rdjones

As some people may or may not know, aswell as being a big sportscar fan, I am a big fan of the BTCC aswell. This year I have been to 9 out of the 10 BTCC rounds and ever meeting I would say the crowd was somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 and I understand there where 33,000 people at Silverstone for the last round of the year, a) because they where charging £15 to get in and b) because there was a free ticket offer in the TOCA Race Driver 3 Computer Game.

They also have good TV package and the cirucits promote the meetings, my local round at Croft was advertised on local TV for at least 2 or 3 weeks before the meeting. How much promotion was given to the LMS meeting at Donington, not very much, but I still think they got a good crowd.

This highlights a crowd between 20-35,000 is very respectable these days.

I don't expect British GT to get anywhere near that unless it is a Bank Holiday meeting, but for an international meeting like FIA GT, and especially the LMS, which can envoke the Le Mans spirit by encouraging camping etc., it's a very realitsic target.

The fact the Donington LMS round attracted 13,000, without ANY promotion, car clubs etc. shows a little more effort could have brought in another 10,000.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Can (and more importantly should) that be translated into endurance racing though? It is more about the achievement, the adventure and the exercise in endurance racing. Think back to the glory days of Sportscar racing, was it a forced show then? Yes the world has changed, but there is no need to turn it into another WTCC because we already have a WTCC. Can endurance racing be changed to suit the modern day fan with a short attention span? By definition no, and if you try then you destroy what it was in the first place.

The 'show' in sportscar racing should be the infield and paddock, camping, car clubs, displays, fairs etc., the cars on the tracks speak for themselves.

Not even a sportscar nut watches the full 6 hours, it's the atmosphere and off track entertainment that sells sportscar racing.

Le Mans and Goodwood show the way, they're events, the racing, to the wider public, is a nice backdrop.

Not for one minute am I suggesting LMS evnts invest in everything we see at Le Mans, but at least encourage that spirit.

Your not telling me car clubs and the like would not lap this kind of thing up.

Is it really too much to ask.

[David L]

Originally Posted by JAG

These series are on a different level to regular motosport, just like Manchester United are to every other Premiership club.

Donington had a larger promotion with John Guest in 2003 with a crowd of 30-35,000, in previous years there were less than 10,000!!!!

The John Guest thing was interesting as they provided, if I recall correctly, lots of free tickets to employees and guests.. A good way to get people through the doors to show them what they are missing (Renault did the same this year with world series at Donington and got something likel 70,000 people there)..

I wonder, though, how many of those 30,000 chose to pay for an event sometime later..?

I think Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal etc would content your football assertions though.. How many do the Latics get every week.. Bet it's getting on for 20,000..

[David L]

Originally Posted by JAG

What we (I) am saying is the current organisors are not promoting/selling sportscar racing to to those that care, nevermind the wider public.

OK.. I accept that.. but are there enough of those that care to merit that promotion to bring them back for one/two events..

It would seem that to get, say, 30,000 at the FIA GT race or the LMS you would need to invest in radio/tv.. better facilities.. lots of other things mentioned above.. and then give away 20,000 tickets..

Would you return the sort of cash necessary to justify the outlay..?

Chicken and egg really.. and that's where I am coming from...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by David L

The John Guest thing was interesting as they provided, if I recall correctly, lots of free tickets to employees and guests.. A good way to get people through the doors to show them what they are missing (Renault did the same this year with world series at Donington and got something likel 70,000 people there)..

I wonder, though, how many of those 30,000 chose to pay for an event sometime later..?

..

It's a little bit of this, a little of that.

Manufactuers and sponsors will obviously promote and give tickets away (the DTM probably goes over the top with this, hence it's so expensive few manfuactuers cannpt afford to compete), invite the car clubs, a little circuit promotion etc.

Nothing outragous, just a little effort and see were it takes us.

Wer're comparing one extreme F1/Moto GP, with massive manufactuer support and promotion, with the LMS, a series in it's infancy, that will only recieve manufactuer support from 2007, and that up until this point has had zero promotion.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by David L

OK.. I accept that.. but are there enough of those that care to merit that promotion to bring them back for one/two events..

It would seem that to get, say, 30,000 at the FIA GT race or the LMS you would need to invest in radio/tv.. better facilities.. lots of other things mentioned above.. and then give away 20,000 tickets..

Would you return the sort of cash necessary to justify the outlay..?

Chicken and egg really.. and that's where I am coming from...

There was 25,000 at Silverstone in 97/98, with Mercedes, BMW (Mclaren) and Porsche, with no major ticket giveaways as with John Guest.

The infield had a few displays, and a big TV screen on the start finish.

Unfortunately that was the last year of the old GT1's, the follwing years were dire.

The first ever LMS race at Silverstone in 2003 had very limited backing from Audi, yet there were 15,000 for a completely new series.

If the race had continued at that venue, with continued Audi backing, I have little doubt the crowd would have built to 20-25k by 2007.

Now with Audi, Peugeot, Porsche, Aston etc. in the mix the LMS has the potential the current FIA series does not have.

[JAG]

Just noticed this thread is 11 pages long!

I hope organisors, manufactuers, teams and drivers at least take a passing interest.

When you consider the total lack of advertising and barron infield at Donington last season, a little will go a long way!

I hope the major privateers and their sponsors have a little more long term faith in the LMS now that Peugeot and co are arrivng on the scene.

For too long European sportscar racing has been surviving year to year, the LMS is the first series since Group C with long term stability, free from FIA interference.

With the likes of Rollcentre and Creation investing in long term LMS deals they will hopefully be encouraged to take more interest in the long term planning/promotion of the series, not only for the fans, but their own sponsors/partners benefits.

I get the feeling everyones pushing for the same end result, we just need a little more communication and focus.

[Mal]

What sportscars need to do is to aim at the upper middle class fans with plenty of cash to spend, much in the same way as Rugby and Cricket do. Leave the mass market (football types) to F1 and BTCC.

You can survive on half the spectators if they spend twice as much. To do that you have to provide facilities that that spectator profile will expect - Information, comfortable trackside bars and food outlets, varied entertainment for the family , covered seating for wet days - Silverstone 2 years ago was a prime example of how to drive away all but your most die hard fans.

ALMS is a good example with a fan based growing in size and quality every year - and this seams to be attracting back the manufacturers - especially the ones at the quality end of the market.

Many people interested in in prestige sportscars are also interested in historic ones - you only have to look around the campsites and car parks at LeMans to see that - so why not run each LMS event as a Sportscar festival with a weekend of races and demonstations featuring sportscar racing from all eras culminating in the 6 hours LMS race. This would attract all sorts of spectators in the right consumer bracket and would, if done well create an 'event'.

Have one make parking areas for all types of sportscars in the infield and this will create a display in the car park which would cost the organisers nothing!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JAG

The 'show' in sportscar racing should be the infield and paddock, camping, car clubs, displays, fairs etc., the cars on the tracks speak for themselves.

Agreed, but they aint coming until their are enough punters there. Catch 22 I guess. Let us not forget that the main event it the racing. If adding all the extra stuff more than doubles the attendence you could start thinking which bit of the "show" was the main event. Your Goodwood examples are good ones.

Your not telling me car clubs and the like would not lap this kind of thing up.

No I am not.

Originally Posted by David L

The John Guest thing...

I wonder, though, how many of those 30,000 chose to pay for an event sometime later..?

Very few of them I'm afraid.

[old man]

Busy thread overnight and some good points I think.

The survey that AU N EGL mentions was a good one that I saw at the time and passed on to SRO who had not at that moment seen it. In UK terms it showed an audience that was mainly A, B and C1 so you have to cater for this market. If the enthusiast brings the family he wants good personal facilities that he would get as a corporate guest but may be lacking for a paying visitor.

Silverstone has good toilets in the paddock, draughty stands and a reasonable restaurant but lacks leaderboard and timing screens. Both series are using Silverstone next year so they could work to build a fan base, the commentarry is on a radio band I think but not always well publicised and difficult to buy radios at the circuit.

We are not getting much comment from other countries but I found Spa terrible last year, what are the rest like?

To get car clubs involved someone, either SRO or P Peter would need to promote the idea but each individual circuit should be able to do it locally and again provide information on the racing to the members attracted. Looking at the two organisations I have to say that SRO have made a bigger effort than P Peter, you only have to look at the websites to see the difference and yet the LMS has much more potential because of the prototypes. I do agree with I think it was Bentley who said we are in for a Golden Age and if we can get the promotion it would be good. I propose to write to both about our concerns.

To get the things we think would help will need the "ringmaster" we mentioned earlier in this thread and it is almost impossible for the two organisations to work together, you only have to look at the calendar clashes shown in dsc's list to see that, so they each need a customer relations person.

SRO have better TV, better website, better information on the site and I am told, better press information but lack attention to the paying punter at the circuit. LMS know they can rely on a good entry to pay the bills because of the possible 24 entry so it seems to me really don't care much about the punters, TV was poor except at Donington last year but may improve next year if the deal to broadcast it is linked to getting the 24 coverage, info on the web is poor, the live timing they put out is not as good as when MST do it (neither is quite up to IMSA in my experience) and if Donington was any guide they make no effort to inform the paying punter.

We simply must pressurise the organising bodies if we are to make progress, ALMS is the vision for us in my opinion

[AU N EGL]

Man you guys on the right side of the pond were busy. Lots of good comments and thoughts.
Ok time for more coffee to digest what was written.

[AU N EGL]

I think 20 to 35K spectators per event is very very good. PPL that get complimentory tickets wind up in the hospitality areas, so those numbers may not be counted at the gate. Most sponsors and thier hospitality / complementory ticket holders, go though a different ( competitors ) gate then the normal spectators anyway.

[HORNDAWG]

One of the things, I think, that puzzle's me. Is most of what has been discussed is infrastructure deficiencies. Do not these facilities host other events? So if capitol improvements are made, it bennefits their entire bottom line, not just the LMS portion! The production of such events (races) needs the cooperation of the entire cast, Sanctioning body, Promoter(s), Facilities and Sponsors.

First off the Races need to be stabilized(set) at specific tracks(sanctioning body /promoter)! This will help with getting the facility to work on the improvements. Sponsors come in to play now, Rolex or JeanRichard timing & scoring towers, Sony etc... jumbo-tron display (t.v.), BurgerKing etc... food(general) and maybe InterContinental Hotels & Resorts, catering or building restaurant(s) and or visitor accommodations. Playgrounds, car parks for vintage and exotics, giftshops w/ radios & info,snacks etc..., a smattering of venders, of a variety, throughout the grounds.

I am not putting the onus on anyone in particular, they each have their own bailiwick. This needs to be a symbiotic relationship with all the parties involved for it to work. Including the Manufacturers and teams. This is just an overview, of a few possible ways to achieve, what seems to be the concensus of what needs to improve, and also grow the sport.



L.P.

[old man]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

One of the things, I think, that puzzle's me. Is most of what has been discussed is infrastructure deficiencies. Do not these facilities host other events? So if capitol improvements are made, it bennefits their entire bottom line, not just the LMS portion! The production of such events (races) needs the cooperation of the entire cast, Sanctioning body, Promoter(s), Facilities and Sponsors.

First off the Races need to be stabilized(set) at specific tracks(sanctioning body /promoter)! This will help with getting the facility to work on the improvements. Sponsors come in to play now, Rolex or JeanRichard timing & scoring towers, Sony etc... jumbo-tron display (t.v.), BurgerKing etc... food(general) and maybe InterContinental Hotels & Resorts, catering or building restaurant(s) and or visitor accommodations. Playgrounds, car parks for vintage and exotics, giftshops w/ radios & info,snacks etc..., a smattering of venders, of a variety, throughout the grounds.

I am not putting the onus on anyone in particular, they each have their own bailiwick. This needs to be a symbiotic relationship with all the parties involved for it to work. Including the Manufacturers and teams. This is just an overview, of a few possible ways to achieve, what seems to be the concensus of what needs to improve, and also grow the sport.



L.P.

Very true Horndawg and that is why Silverstone tends to be better than Donington where the biggest events are for bikes, pits were rebuilt this year and are perfect for bikes and a pain in the butt for long distance sports cars who may never go there again because of this.

I think the problem we have, speaking as a person who does business both sides of the pond, is that selling an event and pleasing the customer is a totally different mind set on your continent. Some European organisers have an attitude that seems to say the public is allowed to watch the boys playing with their toys and this helps maintain the facility but none of the money the public pays for the privilege ever gets anywhere near the boys with the toys. If the boys with the toys want more than a safe track to race on, some nice pits and a padock then they must pay for it, same goes for TV.

I know, this is a little jaundiced but even Bernie has had to insist that facilities are improved and that is why Silverstone is the best in the UK. Brands Hatch is now getting better as a real racer owns it again and appreciates the paying public, As I said earlier what is it like at some of the other European circuits?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by old man

I think the problem we have, speaking as a person who does business both sides of the pond, is that selling an event and pleasing the customer is a totally different mind set on your continent. Some European organisers have an attitude that seems to say the public is allowed to watch the boys playing with their toys and this helps maintain the facility but none of the money the public pays for the privilege ever gets anywhere near the boys with the toys. If the boys with the toys want more than a safe track to race on, some nice pits and a padock then they must pay for it, same goes for TV.

I know, this is a little jaundiced but even Bernie has had to insist that facilities are improved and that is why Silverstone is the best in the UK. Brands Hatch is now getting better as a real racer owns it again and appreciates the paying public, As I said earlier what is it like at some of the other European circuits?

Old Man I think you hit the nail on the head here with the real reasons.

Yes Bernie has his standards for F1 events. The FIA is rating facilities as well. Bigger races must have certain improvments to the facilties to host the events. Appendix O has the regulations for circuits.
http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/circuitregs.html

Granted these regulations do not address all the spectator needs, that may be where local laws come in.

Here in the states, local laws ( building codes) determain how many bathrooms are needed and where, enterence and exit gates, emergancy services roads, food service inspections ect. Grand stand saftey inspections.

It is a lot but race events brings in large amounts of sales ( GST ) tax revinew to the local communities.

[old man]

Interesting to read through (swiftly!) these documents O and H, as you say these are intended for safe operation of a circuit but spectators are not mentioned much except that there should be medical facilities for them. No mention of spectator areas, grandstands or other viewing facilities from the guys in Paris.

As an aside it is interesting to see that circuits, quite correctly, must provide certain facilities for the disabled including toilets but nowhere are they required, as far as I could see, to provide toilets for others! I have been to those circuits!

[JAG]

'Brands Hatch is now getting better as a real racer owns it again and appreciates the paying public, As I said earlier what is it like at some of the other European circuits?'


Does anyone seriously doubt Brands would have attracted a crowd at least double that seen at Silverstone and Donington?

[old man]

No doubt at all, it did a good job on the British GT and must have been able to let SRO have deal they could live with. My only problem with Brands is that I live 250 miles away. The best thing about Brands is that you can see so much of the action and meals in the Kentagon useed to be good.

[AU N EGL]

Here is a web site that may help. It is called Trackpedia. http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Main_Page

Trackpedia list all the tracks world wide. "Full of turn by turn guides, excellent telemetry, informative videos, and the one and only community dedicated to drivers, owners and enthusiasts of the open track. Trackpedia.com is always free and once you register you can update and extend all content to help your fellow drivers by refining the website. So buckle up and join us."


Great Info

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by eddsc

Powertour didn't die because it failed, David - but because it was becoming too successful, and was challenging the BTCC, which BMP had just paid a huge sum for.... Powertour was deliberately killed.

I was just about to say the same thing. I think I said it earlier on this thread, Powertour was 2 years into a three year programme and, as I understand it, semed to be achieving what had been planned. It was executed as part of the whole BMP shake up.

Having said that I agree to some extent with David, I'm not sure that there are an excess of punters out there who want to come to tracks and watch racing.

There needs to to be something else....it will be interesting to see how MSV works out over the next few years, JP is doing a cracking job on the circuits and seems to be prepared to understand what the punters want.