IMSA Race 2015 Rolex 24 at Daytona

[Maelochs]

Here is the bulletin I was referring to from 2014:

IMSA Introduces Modifications To Competition Procedures——http://www.imsa.com/articles/imsa-in...ion-procedures

" - The “Lap-Down Wave-By” procedure – which provides a strategic opportunity for cars a lap or more behind to gain a lap back by staying on course while leaders make pit stops – will be more limited in its application. There will be no Lap-Down Wave-By in races less than two hours and 30 minutes in length. For races between two-and-a-half hours through six hours, the Lap-Down Wave-By will be used only once in any 90-minute period after 60 minutes from the start of a race. No Lap-Down Wave-By will be used in the last 30 minutes of a race."

As far as I know, cars which take the wave-by are still permitted after the rest of the field—otherwise we would be seeing numerous out-of-sequence pit stops, or fewer cars on the lead lap. I believe the year Shank won after the #01 Ganassi car dumped its transmission on pit lane on its last refueling (maybe also the year the race was fog-flagged? I have no memory any more) it was seven laps down and never passed the class leaders, but was in position to win the race when Ganassi broke.

I think this matter needs clarification—we need to all have the same set of facts before we have opinions about those fact. As far as I know cars can both pit and get a wave-by. Can anyone with more ambition point we to the current rule or clarify the situation generally?

[Maelochs]

http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/fi...20011415_0.pdf
46.6. If the Safety car is required to pick up a Car first that is not the overall leader, when deemed appropriate, the Race Director will instruct the Wave-By of all Cars between the Safety Car and the overall leader. Such Cars must overtake the Safety Car ont he right, and remaining in order in Single File, proceed around the racetrack as quickly as possible consistent with safety to rejoin the field at the rear of the car(s) remaining behind the Safety Car. Overtaking the Safety car must be done only on the right, unless otherwise instructed by Race Control.

Haven't found the other yet ... maybe someone else can, I think it is bedtime. (Oddlly, I thought, as Mr. Hedlund described, that whether or not the class leader pitted determined whether there would be a standard wave-by, but the rules make no mention of it.)

Okay the procedures are described in detail in section 47.3 but it is too much to type and I can barely think now.

[MoMedic9019]

Going back to the Code 60/FCY argument...

As someone who ROUTINELY works on a freeway under emergency conditions, and one that has worked on a race track under FCY, and at the scene of an incident, I fully support code 60.

There is no controlling actions of drivers under FCY. The only portion of track under control during a FCY is that of the pack behind the SC. If you are not in the pack, many, if not all, drive ar 8/10ths to catch the pack.

Similar to what I deal with on the side of a major interstate is the same, some people slow down and do what they are supposed to, others feel like it's an opportunity to make up time, or dart around traffic.

Code 60 is a significantly safer option than a FCY.

BUT IT HAD TO BE IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY.

I needs to enact the station before the incident, at the incident, and the station after. Which is the LM slow zone, or the entire track needs it, ala, WEC.

Until you've worked in traffic where people don't slow down, or worked on a track where other cars are trying to catch the SC, you don't have a dog in this fight.

Code 60 needs to be implemented.

[Holt]

Juan Montoya's Daytona 500 crash is a good example of a driver going 8/10ths under yellow to catch the safety car gone bad. I think most people dont realize how close that was to ending in tragedy. The idea the impact alone didnt severely injure the blowdryer driver was a miracle. It could have easily knocked him unconscious and jammed the door. And if the fire started sooner, he would have perished.

I hope in the future the Rolex 24 at Daytona can become the LMP2 crown jewel event that attracts all the best P2 teams from around the world.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Holt

I hope in the future the Rolex 24 at Daytona can become the LMP2 crown jewel event that attracts all the best P2 teams from around the world.

A big thumbs up for this. Actually the whole Endurace Cup could become a big thing in LMP2.

I would really like to see them consider using the Code 60 in the future. One good thing about the safety car is that it gives marshalls time to work on the track. Clear debris, tow cars off the track or whatever. But if it's just a car stuck in a sand trap or something then Code 60 would probably work just fine.

Then there would be some incentive to actually go flat out in these longer races and it would save some precious racing time in the sprint races. Road America last year was just awful.

[chernaudi]

As far as the wave around rule, even the ALMS used it on occasion, namely when the overall leader had cars stuck between him and the pace car. I remember at Sebring '06 IMSA using it to get McNish in the Audi back behind the pace car after a prolonged pit stop to work on a fuel pump and Allan ended up at the back of the train of cars.

I don't know when IMSA started using it in the ALMS, but I believe that it may've been in response to fans wanting to see the overall leader in front on restarts, and maybe in situations like at Las Vegas in 2000 when half the LMP field got spun or wrecked because GT cars bottled up the overall leaders on a restart.

And I do have to say that this is an instance of NASCAR copying the ALMS, because NASCAR's top 3 national touring divisions adopted wave arounds with their double file restarts in 2009 to get cars on the tail end of the lead lap to the back of the field and the leaders up front on restarts.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

IIRC alms used standard wave arounds for years to get the overall leader behind the pace car up until road america 2009 when both of the leading gt2 bmws were waved passed the pace car while the rest of the gt2 field got traped behind the overall leader.the bmws instantly put a lap on the gt2 field and won that race.after that Imsa started using the wave by procedure of the safety car picking up the overall leader or next class leader.


I disagree with the daytona p2 crown jewel attracting the best p2 teams world wide, because literaly all the teams world wide are ameture teams with am drivers by regulations.the "best" p2 teams are only the best against other ameture teams.as seen times before a team with just one am driver can't hold a candle to an all pro team.no lmp2 team will come to race with out a gentleman driver bankrolling the operation.id rather not have lmp2s than have the top class let alone the whole race turn into ameture hour, like if the top class is "top class" on its own already.if it was p1 I'd agree but p2 is struggling globally,and last seasons wec count showed it.

At this point gtlm,gte-pro,and lmp1 are the only FULL pro classes left world wide for this style of endurance sports car racing.......

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Matt

fans that get all worked up over stuff that doesnt affect them in any way lol

You are aware that getting all worked up over stuff means it does affect them. "lol".

Code 60: The dubai 24 were brought up (Speed-King), and them being a bore with their code 60. So yeah, the drawback of code 60 is that it does not bunch the field up. And thus doesn't care for close(r) racing and close(r) finishes. That's a big bonus in my book. I feel it's safer, easier to understand for the casual viewer, fairer to participants and ultimately more satisfying for fans to watch. The difference WEC - IMSA was painfully obvious last year.

Btw, about the "explosion" of negative comments: I myself couldn't be bothered to nag during the race because it inspired me so little I only watched some net 90 minutes of the whole thing and you gotta suffer through it to actually burst out in some internet forum. The track, the cars, ... meh. But I didn't want to annoy the guys enjoying / talking about the race with that. After the race is over, that's a good opportunity to state, "for the record", what your feelings were about the race. Fair, I guess. Questionable though that I spent more time reading/pondering this thread than "attending" the race, heh. Questionable for whom tho (myself? IMSA? )

[Maelochs]

As I stated, I don't have a problem with open-minded people who watched the race and weren't impressed, stating their opinions. I kind of mind the ones who decided to hate the race two years ago and are following through with that. I choose not to respond to the latter, or much to the first group, simply because I want to spend time discussing a race I really enjoyed with people who think fairly similarly.

I can understand not liking the track (I used to like it less, but it is unique, and ... how many people hate or hated Monza, which in its classic layout was similar to Daytona?) and I can understand not liking the cars (P2 is a great class but I don't see it as a Top class (DP either) simply because I am not thrilled with super-tight controls—but still, teams are working hard adapting every part of the cars they are allowed to change, to get better performance. Look at Starworks vs. Ganassi and WTR—similar cars, but much different race performance. Maybe not what we all hope for, but I can still enjoy what we have, at least somewhat. I accept others cannot.

Sorry if I came off as critical. I really don't have a lot of respect for people who prefer prejudice to experience, but I have no criticism for people who rationally disagree with me (even though they are wrong.)

Re: Code 60: I was watching cars on the banking at NASCAR 3 and 4 at about 3 a.m. when a caution was called—I think it was when the Shank car hit the wall, I didn't have the radio on. After about ten minutes I saw a trio of cars coming around at what seemed to be racing speed—I had to check the flashing yellow lights because it seemed for a second the race had returned to green.

The rules even say "proceed around the racetrack as quickly as possible consistent with safety." Okay, but how can the drivers tell what will be safe if they are screaming around the banking at 170 mph? All those drivers cared about was catching up to the pack. A track worker could have run out to grab some debris or something, and suddenly a car could have been on top of him/her.

As for Code 60 not bunching up the field ... in a lot of ways that is more honest. Every driver knows that if he/she pushes really hard and gets a gap, it is almost certainly will evaporate because there will certainly be a cuation. All the slow cars will catch up (as Tzei Tzei notes, there is more incentive to push when your gains will not be erased.)

Wave-Bys: Two different kinds. The wave-around ALMS instituted in 2009 to preserve class battles was and remains a good idea. The ALMS free-lap wave-by which did Not allow drivers to pit, was an interesting idea. the Rolex wave-by which was a free lap at every culture with no penalty, was a farce. If it remains in TUSC, its nature will not have changed.

But ... I think the Rolex can gain back a lot of its lost stature, and 2015 could have been the start of the road back. Obviously the cobbled-together TUSC we will see until 2017 will never achieve Greatness, even though it could be a great race. Once we see what P2 will be in 2017, and what TUSC chooses to run as its top class in 2017 we will have some idea of whether the Rolex, and Sebring, and TUSC itself, can be world-class endurance races and series.

Even if not, TUSC could still put on really good races, which after all—after all the politics, the prejudice, the debate—is what (I think) we all want to see. A dull and boring "World Class" series versus a regional series where the racing is real? We each have an opinion.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Matt

fans that get all worked up over stuff that doesnt affect them in any way lol

I really love this one sentence "everything's great so you have no right to say otherwise" message you keep sending after every couple of hours, completely ignoring all the arguments.

[Disraeli Eers]

Originally Posted by Holt

I hope in the future the Rolex 24 at Daytona can become the LMP2 crown jewel event that attracts all the best P2 teams from around the world.

This is a great approach. Let LM24 be the jewel for LMP1s.

The Rolex should be something LPM2, factory GTE, and maybe even GT3 teams spend their year thinking about and working towards.

[Deleted]

Depends on whether the future LMP2s coming outside from North America are allowed to stay in their own spec and outlook. Then you could have great flux of entries. But if they have to be dumbed down with more spec components, spec tires, stock car bodywork, rebranded names and IMSA BoP it's not attractive in any way.

[Matt]

http://autoweek.com/article/united-s...rs-daytona-web

They've even posted the overnight hours this time!

Excellent.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by joeb

You can follow the folder structure to get what you want here:

http://imsatiming.com/

Thanks a lot!

[JHamilton]

I don't know why I'm posting this after I was browbeaten last year, but for whatever it is worth, here is how the wave-bys work:

- When a safety car is dispatched it picks up the first race car to approach and neutralizes the field.
- The first 'regular' wave-by is for cars caught between the safety car and the overall leader. After this wave-by, the overall leader will be directly behind the safety car.
- Then, if the rules allow, a Lap Down Wave-By (LDWB) will start. This wave-by is for any car stuck between the overall leader and their class leader. This is up to the teams to determine if they are eligible and any mistake or deviation will result in a 2 lap penalty.

I believe most of the confusion comes from the name, Lap Down Wave-By. A car that receives the LDWB is technically getting a lap back, but only in relation to the overall leader. A car that receives the LDWB maintains it's lap in relation to their class leader. No "free laps" are given in TUSCC. The only major difference in the wave-by procedure in the ALMS and TUSCC is that LDWB cars can pit under caution in TUSCC where they could not in the ALMS.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by Matt

http://autoweek.com/article/united-s...rs-daytona-web

They've even posted the overnight hours this time!

Excellent.

Errr the entire 2014 race including the over night online stream has been posted on you tube for ever a year.

But yes it's very excellent that the race has been posted within two days,qualifying was posted a few hours after that day.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I don't know why I'm posting this after I was browbeaten last year, but for whatever it is worth, here is how the wave-bys work:

- When a safety car is dispatched it picks up the first race car to approach and neutralizes the field.
- The first 'regular' wave-by is for cars caught between the safety car and the overall leader. After this wave-by, the overall leader will be directly behind the safety car.
- Then, if the rules allow, a Lap Down Wave-By (LDWB) will start. This wave-by is for any car stuck between the overall leader and their class leader. This is up to the teams to determine if they are eligible and any mistake or deviation will result in a 2 lap penalty.

I believe most of the confusion comes from the name, Lap Down Wave-By. A car that receives the LDWB is technically getting a lap back, but only in relation to the overall leader. A car that receives the LDWB maintains it's lap in relation to their class leader. No "free laps" are given in TUSCC. The only major difference in the wave-by procedure in the ALMS and TUSCC is that LDWB cars can pit under caution in TUSCC where they could not in the ALMS.

There's the rub. In ALMS a team had to weigh getting their lap back against having to stop under green. Now there's no point in debating it, as they now get their cake and eat it too.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Errr the entire 2014 race including the over night online stream has been posted on you tube for ever a year.

But yes it's very excellent that the race has been posted within two days,qualifying was posted a few hours after that day.

I don't seem to remember the overnight portions being posted from last year, just thought it was the televised bits, whoops!

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by BullMan

There's the rub. In ALMS a team had to weigh getting their lap back against having to stop under green. Now there's no point in debating it, as they now get their cake and eat it too.

In my opinion the only teams that benefit from being able to pit are those that are about to go a lap down to their class leader. I would argue if you are a half lap down, caught out by the overall leader and a FCY, and aren't allowed to pit with everyone, they are being penalized by no fault of their own.

The simplest solution was mentioned earlier and that is to leave the pits closed during a FCY. You would shorten caution periods and could still use wave-bys to mitigate the effects of the caution.

[BullMan]

Marshall Pruett hinted that the official results have not yet been published because WTR most likely did run afoul of the max drive time. I find it hard to feel sorry for that group.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Marshall Pruett hinted that the official results have not yet been published because WTR most likely did run afoul of the max drive time. I find it hard to feel sorry for that group.

Even if it true it won't take away their podium because of that BS stock car rule where "top 3 finishers cannot get penalized as it would confuse the fans". The only thing they could lose is points and maybe get some meaningless fine

[BullMan]

Jordan got in a 7:51 and out at 10:26 (2:35). Then in again at 12:07 and out at 1:49 (1:42). That's 4:17.

https://twitter.com/The_Rusty_Hub/st...66120017846272

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Even if it true it won't take away their podium because of that BS stock car rule where "top 3 finishers cannot get penalized as it would confuse the fans". The only thing they could lose is points and maybe get some meaningless fine

While I agree it's BS, your reasoning is incorrect.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

While I agree it's BS, your reasoning is incorrect.

No seriously, that has been the exact reasoning in the past.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by BullMan

No seriously, that has been the exact reasoning in the past.

No seriously. It wasn't. It's absoultely, completely antiquated now and there's no reason to keep it, but confusion wasn't the exact reason.