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View Poll Results: Should F1 cars still be allowed to use DRS in 2023? | |||
Yes, exactly as it is now | 2 | 7.41% | |
No, it should be scrapped | 14 | 51.85% | |
Yes, but with some kind of change (please explain in the replies) | 11 | 40.74% | |
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll |
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2 May 2023, 18:58 (Ref:4154234) | #176 | |||
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Loadsa gimmicks! |
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280 days...... |
2 May 2023, 19:14 (Ref:4154237) | #177 | |
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2 May 2023, 20:14 (Ref:4154246) | #178 | ||
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2 May 2023, 20:25 (Ref:4154248) | #179 | |
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Certainly that game is one of the best atm. But F1 needs to go back to sensible things in place. What’s fun on a video game is not necessarily fun in real life. We all enjoy entertainment, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of sporting fairness
Btw hopefully we will hear less of Max soon. He’s getting too much into his own head |
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2 May 2023, 20:44 (Ref:4154252) | #180 | |
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He's a bit of a panto villain. "He ran into me". "Oh no he didn't. "He didn't leave me enough space". "Oh yes he did".
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2 May 2023, 20:52 (Ref:4154256) | #181 | ||||||
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Hold on and prepare for what I expect will be an unpopular set of opinions for this thread.
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While there is clearly still a disparity in performance between cars and drivers, I think when it comes to the front of the grid, the disparities are small enough that it makes passing exceedingly difficult. You call out "last of the late brakers" DR. I do think he seems to excel at that, but that ONLY works if you are right upon your opponent as you enter the braking zone and the other guy has left the door open. I expect even DR would say that even if he was particularly good at it, it only worked in specific scenarios. In short, I think the drivers are doing about as well as they can given the situation. That it IS as hard as they say it is. So lets then move onto what might happen is you just removed DRS... Quote:
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Your proposal however in short might be summarized as "Necessity is the mother of invention". You effectively want to teach F1 to swim by throwing it into the deep end. You surmise that they will figure it out in a season or two. What if it doesn't? What if F1 can't learn to swim that way? What happens when we have a season or two of VERY boring races and no end in sight? Is there also some level of increased openness of technical regulations to allow for new solutions to appear? How does this work in a cost capped environment? (Teams would have zero interest in this level of financial disruption and unpredictability of performance) And if those solutions exists, why are teams not implementing those TODAY to improve their ability to pass in non-DRS zones? As you say... "13 years". Are ALL of the teams so technically incapable that they haven't figure out a solution yet? Or maybe the problem really is that hard to solve. I expect they will fight hard before someone pushes them into the deep end of the pool as the KNOW they will not be able to swim that quickly. I would liken your idea to what Elon Musk has done with Twitter. He basically decided it was broken (and it was). But instead of finding a solution and then evolving towards that solution over time, he decided instead to burn it to the ground to force change quickly. It might work in the end (or not), but in the interim, Twitter is an absolute cluster with no guarantee that it will come out the other end. Quote:
I will say that I also think P2P is just as arbitrary as DRS and people will complain about P2P just as much as they do about DRS. What should make it less arbitrary is to place the controls into the hands of the drivers. Right now the usage is very prescriptive. zones of usage, rules on when within the zones, etc. I think even DRS might be more well received if "when" was more of a driver strategy issues vs. "if conditions A, B and C are met then you can use it". I also think active aero like DRS (or something similar to it) could be part of a P2P system. Overall, success of anything (DRS, P2P, Active aero, etc.) that is used to resolve the challenge of near parity in performance should be about "skillful" instead of "robotic" or "procedural" usage/application. Richard |
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2 May 2023, 21:21 (Ref:4154260) | #182 | |
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I take on board your points about P2P, Richard. One of the arguments in its favour is it's also Push to Defend, which you cannot level at DRS. You often have no comeback if you don't have DRS, whereas P2P can help set up a move.
It brings its own host of issues, though, such as knowing who is using how much of it and when and also the fact that if you're in more wheel to wheel battles, you may be at a disadvantage in the sense that you have to use more of it and will be lacking some in some of your battles if you use it up too early. |
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2 May 2023, 23:35 (Ref:4154269) | #183 | ||
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I am torn about knowing the amount of P2P left in Indy, I get both the not knowing how much and knowing if someone is on the button. It was impactful in the race this weekend at Barber and Romain burned most of his on a couple laps to build a gap and not get overcut, he then couldn't defend from Scotty Mac and got passed. And Penske's guys could tell him Romain couldn't defend |
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2 May 2023, 23:48 (Ref:4154271) | #184 | |
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Agree with both posts above about P2P. I don't follow Indycar, so I don't know the particulars. I do hope that if an existing series has worked out the kinks on what works and doesn't that F1 is smart enough to look at how others make it work and replicate their success.
Richard |
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3 May 2023, 07:01 (Ref:4154279) | #185 | ||
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My view is very simple. Do away with DRS and don't replace it. At least try it in some of the sprints. See what happens. We've become totally paranoid now about drivers needing something artificial to allow them to race.
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3 May 2023, 10:31 (Ref:4154305) | #186 | |||
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I personally advocate the introduction of a downforce limit and then to allow any kind of aerodynamics, including active aero. |
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3 May 2023, 12:07 (Ref:4154315) | #187 | ||
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This implies that they have prioritised overall downforce generation over the ability to follow another car. Raising the front wing makes sense if you never have to follow in dirty air as this does indeed give more airflow to the floor, but when following another car the front wing is in dirtier air.
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3 May 2023, 13:24 (Ref:4154325) | #188 | ||
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Just drop the 1-second rule, and instead limit the number of activations to one every 5 laps or so.
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3 May 2023, 13:55 (Ref:4154330) | #189 | ||
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I imagine the DRS could be effective even if a car is following more than a second behind, rendering the number of cheap passes even higher. |
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3 May 2023, 15:42 (Ref:4154342) | #190 | |||
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'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari |
3 May 2023, 15:50 (Ref:4154345) | #191 | |||
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'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari |
3 May 2023, 17:35 (Ref:4154361) | #192 | |
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3 May 2023, 18:24 (Ref:4154370) | #193 | |
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Now you're talking. Lots of power - tough to control. Not space-age sophisticated, but inspiring.
Actually, you would get some pretty sophisticated developments to claw back downforce and grip. Last edited by Born Racer; 3 May 2023 at 18:34. |
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3 May 2023, 18:34 (Ref:4154372) | #194 | ||
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And in terms of 'slightly difficult to overtake,' I just think that drivers are now far less likely to take a risk and try a difficult overtake because they are so used to racing with DRS and not having to take much of a risk to get it done, and the longer we go on with it still in place (and crucially being in place in junior formulae), the worse that will get. I am probably being too harsh on the drivers in general, but I think it does have a small effect. It is not quite the same, but in Jeddah we had an example of Verstappen considering a dive down the inside of someone, then deciding not to because he knew he would be able to easily get them down the straight instead with DRS. |
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3 May 2023, 19:25 (Ref:4154383) | #195 | |||||
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But what about when DRS doesn't solve the problem? While I think DRS trains are maybe less of a thing these days, I think they can still exist. And in a way that is showing us what it might look like if there is no DRS. Drivers have already employed the "easy button", but it's not working. They are stuck behind someone, someone is stuck behind them, and so on. So all they have left is legacy strategies for passing. And in many (most?) that also doesn't work. It may take a many laps to be resolved, or maybe not resolved at all! I think the times when it does work is when there is an underlying difference in performance anyhow (car/driver is better than the leading car/driver) Quote:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...olff/10463556/ Toto's comments might be a bit of sour grapes, but I find some comments in the article interesting Quote:
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To my point I made earlier. Are we saying drivers are actively choosing to NOT pass in situations where DRS is not working for them? Drivers are actively giving up positions because it is not easy enough? If the answer to that is "no" then how do we think just dropping DRS is going to have significantly different results then what we are seeing in races in which DRS (as configured for that race) does NOT help much. Is there any logic that says it will be anything but worse than today? Richard |
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4 May 2023, 02:49 (Ref:4154405) | #196 | |
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I am a bit too hash on my post above (prior page). I do think they should pick a strategic sprint or two and try no DRS just to get a hard data point. The problem is that people are not liking the ongoing tweaks to sprint racing as it is. So this will be something else for teams/drivers to complain about.
Richard |
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4 May 2023, 09:01 (Ref:4154437) | #197 | ||
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Let's face it, someone will complain about any change - to anything.....
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280 days...... |
4 May 2023, 13:07 (Ref:4154466) | #198 | |
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As BTCC Frog points out, the tension has been ruined by DRS. It used to be so much better when there was no guarantee the car behind would get in front. The quantity of overtakes may have increased, but it's at the expense of the quality of the racing
Villenueve at Jarama, Senna vs Mansell at Monaco and Alonso vs Schumi at Imola is proof you don't need overtaking to get you on the edge of your seat |
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4 May 2023, 13:38 (Ref:4154472) | #199 | |||
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Also, DRS is ineffective in pelotons, where all drivers except the first one use it. My proposal is fair: every driver gets the same number of activations. And it could be used to attack or defend. Just like in IndyCar. |
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4 May 2023, 14:42 (Ref:4154478) | #200 | |
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