Toyota/Rebellion Racing - Le Mans/ILMC/LMS - 2011 (merged)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

@CTD: you are misusing the term S1600, which refers to FWD cars with a NA 1.6 4 cilinder engine (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_1600) used in e.g. JWRC.

I doubt that the manufacturers can recover the huge investment needed to build a championship winning rally car by selling the car to customers.

Wops . I confused the S1600 rules with the S2000 rules, which are used in IRC.
My mistake.

[gwyllion]

I must admit that the situation is a bit confusing. Next year WRC will adopt the Super 2000 rules, but it allows the use of a direct injected 1.6 turbo engine (instead of the current 2.0 NA engine).

See http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...sc_230610.aspx

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I must admit that the situation is a bit confusing. Next year WRC will adopt the Super 2000 rules, but it allows the use of a direct injected 1.6 turbo engine (instead of the current 2.0 NA engine).

See http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...sc_230610.aspx

Thats crazy, as the S2000 rules are named after 2.0L engines, and S1600 after 1.6L.
But well that's FIA in a box!

[gwyllion]

The same will happen in WTCC next year:

WORLD TOURING CAR CHAMPIONSHIP

The World Council adopted new cost-controlling technical regulations to permit the adaptation of the current Super 2000 cars to the new 1.6L turbo engine.

source: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...sc_230610.aspx

[CTD]

Well, that fits well with an entry to WTCC?
Develop one basic car, and specialize it to WRC and WTCC.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

Well, that fits well with an entry to WTCC?
Develop one basic car, and specialize it to WRC and WTCC.

Not that easy. WRC is 4WD with spec components and WTCC is 2WD. S2000 rally cars are typically small hatch backs, while touring cars are often longer sedans (BMW, Chevrolet, Honda, Vauxhall, ...).

The engine can probably be shared, which is what BMW will do.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Not that easy. WRC is 4WD with spec components and WTCC is 2WD. S2000 rally cars are typically small hatch backs, while touring cars are often longer sedans (BMW, Chevrolet, Honda, Vauxhall, ...).

Of course the 4WD and FWD are two different systems that has to be made, but engine and chassis can be shared.
And yes, a smaller Hatch Back is preferable in WRC, but there is no "standard" in WTCC, just look at the Peugeot 306, 307 (mostly Denmark), but especially the Seat Leon.
A Toyota Auris S2000 Could be build in a FWD and 4WD version, with a lot of shared components. (Besides the old Corrola was made into a quite successful Touring car, so some experience does exist)

[gwyllion]

Perhaps... but because currently there are no S2000 rally and touring cars based on the same road car, I don't see this happening. The wheel base and length of S2000 rally car is limited.

You give the example of the Seat Leon and Peugeot 306/307. The S2000 rally cars of the same brand/family are based on smaller hatchbacks. Peugeot uses the 207 for rally. The Skoda Fabia and VW Polo rally car have the same size as the Seat Ibiza, which is smaller than the Leon.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Perhaps... but because currently there are no S2000 rally and touring cars based on the same road car, I don't see this happening. The wheel base and length of S2000 rally car is limited.

You give the example of the Seat Leon and Peugeot 306/307. The S2000 rally cars of the same brand/family are based on smaller hatchbacks. Peugeot uses the 207 for rally. The Skoda Fabia and VW Polo rally car have the same size as the Seat Ibiza, which is smaller than the Leon.

The physical difference between the 207 and the 308 (same generation for better comparison) aren't that large.
The 207: 4045mm x 1972mm (with wing mirrors)
The 308: 4276mm x 2038mm (with wing mirrors)
And since Toyota doesn't have a proper supermini (the Yaris being to small for rally), and doesn't have a proper touring car with promotion value (The Avensis being to commercial and not family orientated enough), The Auris/Corolla is the only car which fits both classes.

[FIRE]

Toyota has already S2000 rally cars based on the Corolla and Auris.

[Victor_RO]

Autosport magazine says in this week's issue that Toyota will indeed return next year, but only as an engine supplier, and that their team of choice is Rebellion Racing; they mention that the engine is based on the Super GT engine, and that the first engines have already been delivered to the team.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Autosport magazine says in this week's issue that Toyota will indeed return next year, but only as an engine supplier, and that their team of choice is Rebellion Racing; they mention that the engine is based on the Super GT engine, and that the first engines have already been delivered to the team.

The only news to me in that connection, is that Rebellion Racing is the receiver.
But this means that the Toyota brand will return to Le Mans next year i LMP1.

Again. Is this a toe-in-the-water project?

[mirkob]

What engine?
The SC 430's 3UZ-FE V8?

[Dead-Eye]

Too big for P1. Rather the 3.4l RV8KG they are currently using in Super GT.

[Simmi]

Really hoping this leads to a full factory effort. In the Autosport article the project manager at Toyota said this Rebellion tie up was only a "commercial deal" and shouldn't be interpreted as anything else. But I suppose they would say that.

One thing it does mean is that there will be a large presence of Toyota people at Le Mans which can't be a bad thing can it.

[joeb]

Are we sure this is for P1 and not P2?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by joeb

Are we sure this is for P1 and not P2?

Yes.
Unless the SupertGT engines are production based, then it can only be Lmp1.

[The Badger]

I somehow cant see Rebellion wanting to step back to P2 ..... but money talks I guess .

Be great to see Toyota back at Le Mans again , and indeed within the LMS too . Hopefully a Sebring entry on the cards if their serious .

[CTD]

I don't think we will see more than Rebellions former efforts.
The only way i see Toyota getting more evolved, is if the project carries unexpected fruit and the engine are able to compete with the other petrol cars, and sometimes challenge for the win.

[Speed-King]

Didn't Rollcentre run Nissan Super GT engines sometime around 2003/04?

From what I remember they weren't all that happy with that and the level of support they received from Nissan...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Didn't Rollcentre run Nissan Super GT engines sometime around 2003/04?

From what I remember they weren't all that happy with that and the level of support they received from Nissan...

But since then the GT-R has arrived and Nissan need to show off as a Sports marque .

[JAG]

Commercial deal or not the 3.4 V8 is a factory Super GT engine so once adapted to ACO restictors should be as good as anything out there.

Isn't the P2 HPD/Super GT Honda 3.4 V8 effectively the same engine?

Zytek are servicing Nissan's Super GT engine but this time in 4.5l P2 spec so I guess there is also potential to see the 3.4 V8 in P1.

Whether that is with Zytek will come down to their plans for their own 3.4 V8.

[WMUCarGuy]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Too big for P1. Rather the 3.4l RV8KG they are currently using in Super GT.

Was that engine based on the current LMP2 engine?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by JAG

Commercial deal or not the 3.4 V8 is a factory Super GT engine so once adapted to ACO restictors should be as good as anything out there.

Are the Super GT engines able to run 24hrs? I know they should be able to last the standard 1000km races, but is there any history of these engines running longer?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by joeb

Are the Super GT engines able to run 24hrs? I know they should be able to last the standard 1000km races, but is there any history of these engines running longer?

If what is said about Honda's Super GT engine being virtually the same thing as the engine in the ARX-01, then yes, there is an emphatic example from this year.