Brabham BT21

[James Murray]

Yep, Ian Bax it is. Is he still about?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by James Murray

Yep, Ian Bax it is. Is he still about?

Unfortunately Ian passed away last year.

[TeamSurtees]

I have BT21B-15, AM242. Run since 2000. It has been converted to a twin cam.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by TeamSurtees

I have BT21B-15, AM242. Run since 2000. It has been converted to a twin cam.

Welcome aboard!

Do you have the History of past owners etc for your car? If so it could be of great help in sorting out various 'missing links'!

[Leighton Irwin]

Thought I might throw a little light (or dust) on the Bruce Jensen BT21C. It was purchased from Fred Opert used with a Vegantune and a Mk 5 Hewland. Colour was Yellow with Black stripes. In those days cars crossing between Canada and the US normally had their # plates removed to avoid CDA. Customs. My Elva Mk6 was aquired in exchange for a road going wrecked MGA with the race # used as ID. I believe I was Fred's 1st Cdn. customer. The Vegatune blew in a big way and was replaced by a BRM twin cam that had zip power. Car was sold for a B17 Chevron and I think back to Fred.

[LoLola]

[QUOTE=Chris Townsend]OK

I think I solved my query about the Buxton car.
There are several more obscure BT21s in Atlantic still to work out, but I thought that I would have a stab at working out those 50 or so BT21s, based on RAPs chassis numbers and my own notes from the press about who bought whose car:

16: March 67 Richard Burton, 1968 John Campbell, 1969 Campbell to Wayne Mitchell and then on to James Hunt. 1970 Terry Harmer



In researching the complete background on number 16, I spoke with Wayne Mitchell. He confirmed he bought the car in 1969 and then told me it was not what he wanted but was waiting for delivery of a BT 29 and bought this in the meantime until it arrived. He said that the car was previously repaired by the factory due to a crash in Denmark with Doug Revson driving. Does anyone have any further information on this?

[Chris Townsend]

Interview with James Hunt in Motoring News 1 Mar 73
He talks about the BT21 a bit. It's described as ex Burton, ex Campbell and he remarks that it was a 67 car with a 66 engine!

Only thing is that if it's a 67 BT21 it's a straight BT21 not really a BT21B [68 model] so calling it BT21B-16 is a bit confusing, as presumably there is, or was, a real 21B-16 out there.
Maybe Denis Lupton could help us here?

Chris

[LoLola]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Interview with James Hunt in Motoring News 1 Mar 73
He talks about the BT21 a bit. It's described as ex Burton, ex Campbell and he remarks that it was a 67 car with a 66 engine!

Only thing is that if it's a 67 BT21 it's a straight BT21 not really a BT21B [68 model] so calling it BT21B-16 is a bit confusing, as presumably there is, or was, a real 21B-16 out there.
Maybe Denis Lupton could help us here?

Chris

Same car, as it was also ex Wayne Mitchell. Wayne lives near me and gave me the rest of the story. The tag actually reads BT21C-16. Not sure what the differnce is between b or c, can you help? Do you have that article? I would love to read it.

Nick

[John Viggers]

Hello all,

I've been watching this thread with awe for the past few months.

My car is BT21B-16 AM 250

I am currently restoring it to F3 specs with a Broadspeed Screamer.

I purchased it in June of 2005 from Wayne Mitchell. He wasn't sure of the history as he got it in the late 70s or early 80s.

Does anybody have a list of all the 21Bs?

John

[allenbrown]

Welcome John. Thanks for a most interesting addition to our cast of BT21s.

Nick - I'm beginning to suspect that the history Wayne gave you is for BT21-16 and doesn't actually belong to your car at all. He's clearly had a number of BT21-type cars.

Allen

[LoLola]

[QUOTE=allenbrown]Welcome John. Thanks for a most interesting addition to our cast of BT21s.

Nick - I'm beginning to suspect that the history Wayne gave you is for BT21-16 and doesn't actually belong to your car at all. He's clearly had a number of BT21-type cars.

Allen[/QUOTE

Allen, could very well be. As with any car without all logbooks and without an unbroken chain of ownership there is no way of being sure where it has been. Even trying to figure out from past race programs is difficult as most of them were never consistent whether it was a 21 A,B, or C. All I have to go on is what Wayne told me about the car when I told him the number. When he told me about the history of the car I would assume that he knew. John said that Wayne did not know the history of the car he sold to him so I would assume that it was not the car that Wayne owned in 68. Wayne has a number of Brabham cars and sold quite a few. He would probably knows more about this than us guessing at it. I will call him again to try to calrify it. Now the question is, was there a BT21-16, a 21b-16 and a 21C-16 and what is the history of each?

Nick

[LoLola]

After speaking with Wayne again it is clear that the history is only from memory as he can't be sure what cars frame numbers were. Going off the list it was familiar to him that the cars history did correspond to the car he had, but not knowing if it was A, B or C. After reading a bit more it tends to suggest on this site that 21C's were formula Libre cars but many other race reports contradict that they were only that.

I saw a thread from an F2 site that shows Richard Burton/Frank Williams in 68 for a Formula Libre race. Is that correct? If so what car was it?

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:X...s&ct=clnk&cd=4

John, Wayne recalls that he bought several frames less parts from a group in Chicago that dismantled them using the components to build sports racers about 25 years ago and that was where he aquired the chassis he built your car around. Not knowing if the dash corresponds to the chassis it would be hard to say if any of these cars are actually the identifiable, mine included.

Allen, are there any documents that cross reference frame numbers to chassis numbers?

Nick

[allenbrown]

I'm not aware of any document that connects Brabham AM numbers to frame numbers although several people have attempted to do this by collecting as many observations as possible. The lost George Thornton notebook is our best hope.

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

Allen
I corresponded with the late George Thornton over many year's,phone and mail, and he alway's said that his record's gave MRD chassis numbers,engine and gearbox number's,purchaser and delivery date detail's but AM number's were not even considered.Chassis were just ordered in part's from subcontracter's. As is now the case,an oversight that,as far as historian's are concerned, is cause for the tearing of hair and grinding of teeth. I must admit,until I spoke to Frank Gardner in 1964 at Sandown Park I didn't know about frame number's at all.Frank didn't attach much importance to them anyway,and that seemed to be the attitude at the time.Also, the early chassis number's were applied in retrospect. Jack was writing a column in Motor Racing ,and the editor,Alan Brinton,suggested that before it got out of hand,a numbering system should be applied. Thank God ,ofherwise can you imagine the extra troubles thatwe'd all have now?

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

12: March 67: MRS for Harry Stiller and Tony Lanfranchi, sold to Charles Lucas and used by Stiller, Bev Bond and Lucas. 1968 Mike Beuttler, 1969 sold to Fred Opert along with Jupp's BT21

Stiller had two BT21s. According to AS 23 Jun 1967 p1027, Stiller moved his two cars from MRS/Radio London to Charlie Lucas' team/colours and the second car, the one previously driven by Lanfranchi, was driven by Lucas.

At that same race (Brands 18 June), Ikuzawa has a brand new BT21 - if that helps position that car.

Also, I noticed Millar has a F3 Brabham in 1967 and I wonder if that's how BT21/33 started out.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Stiller sells his car to Bond in November (AS 1 Dec 1967 p935) if that helps. In the same race as Bond in the ex-Stiller BT21 was Mike Beuttler in the ex-Lucas BT21.

[Chris Townsend]

Bond car actually owned by Ken Parr-Billings and I think purchased earlier than November. Run by Jean Allen for Bond in 68 then to Barrie Goulden [MN 6.3.69 p.19]

F1R gives chassis 12 for the Beuttler car in 1968. This car sold to Opert in 1969 along with the ex Jupp BT21 by P&M Racing MN 30.1.69 p.16

Chris

[Leighton Irwin]

Chris: If either of the cars sold to "Fast" Freddie Opert was yellow with a black stripe it went to Bruce Jensen with a Ford Twin Cam.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Allen,

I believe you need to delete BT21A-7 as the ex NZ car and make it BT21-7 , Chris and I have had seperate discussions re this car.
Bryan.

Bryan

I don't seem to have asked you the obvious question at the time!

To refresh your memory, this was the car that David gave as Grahame Harvey Dec 1967 - Les Jones 1968 - Graham Baker 1969 - Allan Rhodes 1970 - Russ Noble 1971 and then became a sports car. How did you determine that this was BT21-7 and not BT21A-7? Given its date of arrival, I agree it's more likely to be a converted second-hand F3 car that a new(ish) custom built BT21A.

Allen

[allenbrown]

On the subject of antipodean BT21s, did we come to a conclusion on the Hawthorne/Taylor car and does anyone know anything about the BT21 that Kelvin Cameron entered for the 1970 NZ GP? Vercoe has it as BT23/7 which can't be right and F1R just have it listed as a BT21. It didn't turn up so may not have existed.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

We haven't had much discussion of BT21Bs specifically on this thread, but I've been working away on 1968/69 F3 in response to recent BT28 developments, so thought it might be germane to post the following list

Incidentally, Allen will notice that I might have solved the identity of his Brendan McInerney/Geoff Friswell BT21B about which he enquired in another place

1: New to Mike Keens late 1967 and debuted at Jarama in December.
Keens and others run by P&M in 1968, then to Matts Bystrom 1969
2: [Guess at Frank Williams]
3: Tested by Courage late 67 then to P&M for John Epton. Badly damaged Oulton Park spring 68, rebuilt for Keith Jupp and Jim Hardman late season. Used by Beuttler early 69 until BT28 ready. 1972 used by Trevor Scarratt in monoposto
4: To P&M for Andy Williamson late 67. Used by him in 1968 then a variety of other drivers including Brendan McInerney late season. Perhaps the car run by McInerney early 69 until his Chevron was ready
5: Pete Knoll USA as FC
6: Williams for Supercarwash Team of Champin and Gerbeault
7: Williams for Supercarwash Team of Champin and Gerbeault
8: [Guess: Ulf Svensson]
9: [Guess: Walker for Peter Westbury et al]
10: [Guess: P&M for alex Trotter]
11: [Guess: Peter Fattorini and then to Paul Craven]
12: [Guess: Simon Saye]
14: Goodwin Racing for George Lewis, perhaps with a life earlier in season; 1969 Goodwin for Cyd Williams; 1970: Chris Montague
15: Roger Hickman [HC] 1969: Andy Sutcliffe, destroyed
16: [Guess: Ove Nicklasson]
17: [Guess: Jean-Pierre Cassegrain]
18:[Guess: Graham Coaker]
19: [Guess: Midland RT- Bernd Baur]
20: [Guess: Jonas Qvanstrom]
21: [Guess: Ole Vejlund]
22: [Guess: Wayne Mitchell]
23: [Guess: Rene Ligonnet]
24: Williams for Guthrie, taken to Tasman with t/c then to Nelson Todd by 1971
25: [Guess: Franco Ghezzi]
26: Tetsu Ikuzawa [June]; 1969 to Eddie Jacobsen
27: [Guess: Dubler]
28: Lythgoe for Alan Rolinson; 1969: Norman Foulds; 1970: Howlings, then to Spencer Elton in mid 70s
29: [Guess: Ingvar Pettersson]
30: [Guess: Kurt Lincoln]
31: [Guess Sam Brown]
32: Tetsu Ikuzawa

Most of the guesses are based on appearance dates. Any other observations from 1968-69?

Chris

[allenbrown]

Nice one Chris

The Friswell car is described in MN (just found and lost again while looking for a Kirkistown race that never happend) as ex-RCI/Bond which matches what Geoff said but called a BT21, not a BT21B. Maybe even MN didn't know there was a difference.

[allenbrown]

The Frank Williams/Richard Burton BT21B was mentioned above winning at Brands on 23 Jun 1968. Is this a different car to the BT21 Burton had? If so, could it explain the ex-Burton confusion around a car that went to Wayne Mitchell?

What about the Lythgoe/Berry 'BT21B' (Rufforth 29 Jun 1968; Ingliston 8 Sep 1968)? Any idea if that would have been Lythgoe's 1967 BT21-18 or the 1968 BT21B-28?

Fred Opert also has a Formula C BT21B at Lime Rock 2 Sep 1968 alongside Mitchell's FC "BT21B/C".

Allen

[allenbrown]

Did Hardman continue to run BT21B/03 later in 1969? I have him in a couple of libres in a BT21B in August 1969.

You mean Dave Williamson with BT21B-4, not Andy, don't you?

Looking at the McInerney/RCI/Bond car again, I can see McInerney driving the P&M BT21B-4 late 1968 and then driving or entering a BT21B under the RCI banner for Bond and others in 1969. It would make sense for him to have taken over that BT21B but I agree with you that it would have to rate as a "perhaps". I'll add it as a footnote and leave it as unknown for now.

We could really do with Alan Brown popping up with a list of chassis plate observations about now...

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

In 1974 Elton is selling a BT18 'ex Peter Deal/David Wray' so F2.21.66. Deal last appears in the car 1969, so don't know if Elton has it from then.

Peter Deal runs in libres at Llandow and Castle Combe in 1972, 1973 and 1974 in a twin-cam Brabham variously described as a BT21, BT21B, BT21D and BT21XD. But once in 1974 Autosport describe it in the text of the report as a BT18 and I wonder if it was his old BT18 updated.

Anyone have anything on this car? Ted - did you see it?

Allen