The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by arakis

so its what 30kg heavier then audies, they can save that much by using the back electric motor

The complete e-tron quattro system weighs 80-90 kg. See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...50#post3033450

My guess is that the Toyota solution weighs 100+ kg.

[knighty]

yup, the Toyota KERS system is well over 100Kg, in the racecar engineering feature the hybrid dude also simply admits why they went the ultracap route.......POWER.......nothing will dump its load faster than ultracaps, the compromise being their volume and associated weight, but this is no big deal for an LMP car, its more of an issue for an F1 car with no package space.........hence this aparrently did not compromise toyota reaching their LMP1 weight target

[gwyllion]

The April-June 2012 edition of PMW magazine has an article on the Toyota TS030: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...9#/9cb4d8f9/48

Some interesting quotes:

Placing motor generators in the front adds weight. However, taking them and their associated driveshafts away causes a rearward weight shift at odds with the aero downforce balance, so they have to be replaced with ballast. This aggravates a problem with the weight of the system, which is believed to be more than 150kg – a big part of the 900kg total.

“The main advantage of super-capacitors is the very quick energy recovery rates, which allow the system to fully recharge in a short period of braking,” says Murata. “This is a key point in developing a hybrid system that will deliver extra laptime performance.” With the amount of power storage required, lithium ion batteries would have performed far worse, as well as generating unwelcome heat.

This is not just a marketing exercise, says Murata: “We expect the knowledge we gain from our WEC program to contribute to hybrid road car development, but it is too soon to say positively that super-capacitors will be part of that technology transfer. The demands of a road car hybrid system are very different to motorsport in terms of energy recovery and braking distances, so the energy storage method is not necessarily interchangeable.”

Let's hope for Toyota that the 150 kg is a bit exaggerated.

[TF110]

They said without the hybrid system the car weighs 750-800kg in another article. I don't doubt the hybrid system they'll run will make the car meet 900kg without going overweight. I'm sure Audi isn't the only company with low weight in mind, so the body may be lighter than what they want to say. Maybe everything they say right now is carefully worded as to not give anything away. We'll probably find out soon, as their next test is in the coming weeks.

[gustavobamba]

Dear friend,TF110, who will be for you the TS030 lap times this year in Qualifying ??

IMO I think 3:24m/3:25m, and a top speed of 335 km/h.

[TF110]

I think both the Audi E-Tron and Toyota will be lower than 3:24. Maybe the DOME will get close. Remember the hybrid can make over 120hp for a few seconds, so the acceleration will be very good. If Toyota stick with RWD I think they'll be better out of slower corners because their hybrid can kick in at any speed. The torque output of the electric motors are very high as well. If we go by what's said in the R18 thread, they've made progress so that they produce as much downforce as the Sebring cars with lower drag. That will definitely make the car fast in the straights while keeping them glued in the corners. I'm positive Toyota is onto this as well.

[TF110]

Looks like Anthony Davidson http://twitter.com/#!/antdavidson will be back in Cologne for seat fitting and sim work. I hope he is at the next test to get his take on the TS030. Be interesting to hear what he has to say and if he makes any comparisons to the 908.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think both the Audi E-Tron and Toyota will be lower than 3:24. Maybe the DOME will get close. Remember the hybrid can make over 120hp for a few seconds, so the acceleration will be very good. If Toyota stick with RWD I think they'll be better out of slower corners because their hybrid can kick in at any speed. The torque output of the electric motors are very high as well. If we go by what's said in the R18 thread, they've made progress so that they produce as much downforce as the Sebring cars with lower drag. That will definitely make the car fast in the straights while keeping them glued in the corners. I'm positive Toyota is onto this as well.

just think that during sebring week-end audi with a 2011 bodywork + weight ballast and a more restricted engine has been able to run 0.7 seconds under the 2011 pole, is easy to think that with a 2012 bodywork + hybrid system will mean in my opinion at least 2 seconds faster at le mans than last year talking about audi r18 e-tron quattro! a bit slower will be the r18 ultra because lacks of boost given by the hybrid in corner exit after arnage and mulsanne corner.
About toyota, this year will be a "development in race" season, i guess that will be already a great result for them to have developed an aero efficency comparable to peugeot/audi 2011 cars, so in my opinion will run in similiar poletime of last year 3.25 or something less (3.24 very high).
Beyond the performance will be intersting to prove who has the best fuel efficency between r18 e-tron quattro and TS-030 hybrid, if toyota is a bit slower but can run a lap more than audi per stint maybe the things will start to be really intersting about the strategy for the overall win.

[TF110]

I doubt they'll leave their benchmark at 2011 car levels. Wurz already drove the 2012 hybrid version of the Peugeot, so why stop at a benchmark of last year's cars? That's just foolish to assume. Every team would try to get more performance from their car to be competitive with the current players. Toyota especially considering this is a brand new car. Sebring doesn't have the very long straights like LeMans. HP will matter there. So I doubt Audi will be getting close to the times people are thinking (3:21's). They'll be as fast as last year and maybe a second or so better. So I think low 3:24's or high 3:23's.

[NelisB]

Guess the people from Toyota also visited Spa to take a look at the track. http://bit.ly/GWoHoo

[TF110]

What were they doing there? "Visiting" or something more?

[gwyllion]

There is an official test day at Spa-Francorchamps tomorrow: http://www.spa-francorchamps.be/en/t...s-testdays.php

[TF110]

So you think Toyota will be there testing?

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by TF110

I doubt they'll leave their benchmark at 2011 car levels. Wurz already drove the 2012 hybrid version of the Peugeot, so why stop at a benchmark of last year's cars? That's just foolish to assume. Every team would try to get more performance from their car to be competitive with the current players. Toyota especially considering this is a brand new car. Sebring doesn't have the very long straights like LeMans. HP will matter there. So I doubt Audi will be getting close to the times people are thinking (3:21's). They'll be as fast as last year and maybe a second or so better. So I think low 3:24's or high 3:23's.

the difference between toyota and audi/peugeot is that toyota is still a rookie talking about lmp1, hasn't all the know how acquired by audi in more than 10 years of race. For this reason i say that at least for 2012 audi will still have a better aero development, while for toyota will be an amazing result to reach the aero efficency of r18 2011 in the debut year. Sure wurz tried the 908Hy4, can give a load of feedbacks to TMG engineers but more than that he can't do to develope the aero of the car. About le mans, well, is true, with the power decrease r18 e-tron/ultra will have difficulties to reach the max speed that easily could reach last year, but all is balanced by the fact that for sure the 2012 bodywork (meanwhile fenders) will produce less drag than 2011 one! maybe toyota will mark overall top speed but i think that audi cars won't have much problems to run around 325 km/h in fastest section of the track.

[TF110]

That's what benchmarking is for. To meet a target. Toyota isn't going to set out to do 3:30's at LeMans. They want to go as fast as they can while being reliable. Just because they're 'new' doesn't mean their car won't be up to speed. The Dome will be damn fast as well. You'll see. I don't want to argue with you over something neither of us knows yet. I'm confident they'll be on the pace. We only have a few weeks before we find out.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TF110

So you think Toyota will be there testing?

Testing or not they're visiting:

Originally Posted by @Toyota_Hybrid

Guess where we visited ? https://twitter.com/#!/Toyota_Hybrid.../photo/1/large

[gwyllion]

They use the past sentence, so the visit is over. I doubt that they tested because the number of test days in Spa is limited because of noise regulations.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

They use the past sentence, so the visit is over. I doubt that they tested because the number of test days in Spa is limited because of noise regulations.

Data collecting!?, for simulations, tire and pre-setup?


Remember its perfectly legal to race anything around any track, as long as its noise levels are below the legal standards

[Adam43]

I suspect they are there to work out where they are going to set up base. More for marketing than anything else. There is likely to be a lot of employees there because it is so close to Cologne.

I just liked the picture.

[GTfour]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Toyota completely surprised the competition back in 1998 and I'll bet they're gonna perform the same feat this year. I'm betting them TS030's will hammer the Audi's hard. Diesel engines, up 'till now, enjoyed their superior torque. This has been nullified by the new hybrid systems. Toyota's system is known to be the more powerfull set up and on top of that, their gasoline V8'll trump the diesels in top end power.

I.m.h.o. Pole at Le Mans will be for Toyota this year.

[alexkiller8]

well, to compare the 1998 with 2012 is really inappropiate... when the gt-one debuted in GT1 class, was clear that the car was a full built lmp prototype with a full race engine (basicly a evo version of engines used in late '80 and early '90 in group C) while rivals like 911 GT1, esperante GTR and CLK-LM were prototypes as well but not with the aero extremized of the gt-one... maybe the only really GT1 cars remained were the mclaren f1 gtr longtail and the R390 GT1. In 1998 and 1999 there were not doubts that was the best car in the roster because of the prototype nature, but because of unluck and development mistakes the car was able to do well just in japan races.

[Adam43]

off topic:

Originally Posted by GTfour

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

This pretty much sums up most threads at the moment.

[kurski]

Former Super Aguri driver Anthony Davidson test first time tommorrow Toyota TS030 LMP1 Hybrid car?...

[Simmi]

Ant looks happy with his new helmet!

https://twitter.com/#!/Toyota_Hybrid...354624/photo/1

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by kurski

Former Super Aguri driver Anthony Davidson test first time tommorrow Toyota TS030 LMP1 Hybrid car?...

Wrong way to name Davidson by mentioning the one rubbish car he drove in F1 and completely ignoring the massive pace he showed in the Peugeots.