TCR International Series

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Will be really interesting to see if TC3 picks up momentum and what it can turn into. I just hope it wont be escelating costs for building the cars the same way as all previous regulations has been (Supertouring, S2000, NGTC). If they can control the costs the same way as GT3 has managed then I think we are into something good.

The large advantage for the series is that there is a cheap base-line car available already; the Seat Leon. So if you make your car too expensive you're only fooling yourself. Thats the nice element of this formula, and GT3 shows it really works.

[RED55]

Originally Posted by auroan

NGTC is only expensive because GPRM (the sole supplier of the "expensive" bits) have a monopoly and can almost charge what they like. If there was more than one supplier of these spec (but custom) parts, prices would be cheaper due to competition.

Not strictly true , NGTC kit from GPRM is around 40k and other things like gearbox ,dampers, turbo,wheels, electronics etc are all single suppliers , the Cosworth wiring and electrics are actually one of the most expensive part of the car and each of these suppliers will be licensed through TOCA so a percenatge will probably go to TOCA . it costs at least 250k to build a decent car despite the limit of being able to sell one around 205k , there is an engine to lease on top of that so 205k + for a repmobile with no engine is along way off a TCR car with near similar performance for 100k euros ready to race.

NGTC is working in the Uk obviously if the Grid is full , but other series need a cheaper option as they just dont have the following the BTCC has and TCR could well provide that . Look at Arena now Onyx , they would produce an NGTC focus if they could sell them and make a business from it, but they will make more money with a TCR option because it can be sold ten fold to the whole world if required.

[Fechna]

What seems kinda weird to me is the fact, that 5 brands are "official", but we basically only know who builds 4 of the cars (Honda, Seat, VW and Ford).

Does anyone know who will build the expected Opel? Because otherwise it´s "first see, then believe".

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Fechna

What seems kinda weird to me is the fact, that 5 brands are "official", but we basically only know who builds 4 of the cars (Honda, Seat, VW and Ford).

Does anyone know who will build the expected Opel? Because otherwise it´s "first see, then believe".

It'll be more 'who will adapt' rather than 'who will build', based on the Astra VLN?

[Fechna]

But does this thing fit into the regulations regarding width, power, etc? It looks way different then a TCR car.

[Bramzel]

In terms of engine and drive it does as far as I know, not sure about gearbox and it'll probably need a few aero changes? But still, you don't have to develop it from scratch.

[Speed-King]

And TCR has always been intended as a BoP-class... so the cars can have some initial performance differences.

Back in 2006 when GT3 started out some cars were way more radical than others in terms of bodykits and stuff like that, especially the Aston and the Viper, while the Porsche and the Lambo looked pretty much stock. Yet it was the Porsche that won the first championship, IIRC.

[GusGasfuss]

If someone visits TCR website now, he will be welcomed by "eligible cars"...

We can see Seat, Honda, Ford, Opel and VW. Also they show photos of Alfa, Hyunday, Nissan and a Mercedes C-Class (W204, looks like an example from south american racing etc.). Does this have an intention? Never before there was C-Class in directory of "eligible cars". Once we saw the AMG-prepared CLA-model, but it was removed earlier.

Alfa Giulietta could be also possible - isn't Lotti connected to ex-works squad of Alfa Romeo Nordauto/N.Technology? Don't blame me, but i remember something like this. Maybe they could do something like this, as i really don't know more "big" alfa romeo teams. Car has 1,75 litre turbo engine. Would be suiting.

Opel, Ford, VW, Seat and also Honda have very similar 2.0l turbo engines, with 280PS in original, so that fits perfectly.

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by Fechna

What seems kinda weird to me is the fact, that 5 brands are "official", but we basically only know who builds 4 of the cars (Honda, Seat, VW and Ford).

Does anyone know who will build the expected Opel? Because otherwise it´s "first see, then believe".

Thorney Motorsport were making noises earlier in this thread about wanting to build an Opel if it was approved.

[Juntos]

John Thorne built a Insignia NGTC for BTCC. Pull out. No money. Can he afford an European series now?

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Juntos

John Thorne built a Insignia NGTC for BTCC. Pull out. No money. Can he afford an European series now?

Yes, however, after that he put up a blog(ish) on building a prototype astra GTC for a single make championship.

Last I saw they were stripping a chassis down to bare bones.

[Thorney]

There are still a lot of questions on the Astra for TCR:

1. Regs state 4 door cars (all the other cars stated are 4 door), the OPC/GTC model is a 2 door shell, I've asked if the GTC is ok but heard nothing back.


2. If its a Opel backed deal I'd imagine Kissling will get the deal as they built all the OPC cars, but that does mean Opel need to back it and at the moment they wont even let the cars run outside VLN and you cant buy the car (or parts) outside of VLN.


3. Vauxhall have zero interest in anything racing at the moment but that might change, who knows.


4. If the OPC cup cars are accepted as the TCR model (ie they allow 2 door shell) then they will need a load of work to be competitive against the others. For a start the OPC Cup cars are pretty much road cars with cage and some nice carbon bodywork (we tried to buy the bodywork for our race cars but were told to sod off). They run stock looms, OEM ECU's, stock ABS, stock gearbox even stock intercoolers so run about 300bhp. They have good suspension form Bilstein, decent (massive money) brakes from Perf Friction and the usual safety stuff. If you compare that with the SEAT, with sequential box etc they will get annihilated in the current form, BOP will involve them starting a minute or so ahead of the others


5. We are building two GTC Cup cars, one on similar spec to the OPC Cup car but with uprated turbo, intercooler and running higher power of 340bhp which will be the launch car for the GTC Cup running in 2016. This year we are testing it and racing it in a variety of races both sprint and endurance to make sure its perfect for the 2016 season. The cars will be available as fully built or as a kit of homologated parts for teams to assemble themselves - similar to NGTC for BTCC (but without the draconian prices!). The second car will be a TCR equivalent with sequential, aero and 360bhp which will act as the second tier car for the GTC Cup and/or a TCR car. However seeing as we are unlikely to be selected as the TCR car builder we will just run them for the GTC Cup race series.

6. I'm a big fan of the TCR series and the people behind it (be nice if they responded to emails though). NGTC has been successful for BTCC in terms of grid size but the cars are more expensive than the S2000 cars so the concept of cost cutting allowing teams like us into the series has failed miserably. When we got involved we were told the cost of the cars would be £150k but in reality they are twice that and that effectively ended our chance. We sold the Insignia for £200k, thats the highest price achieved for an BGTC car ever, but still lost us £100k - thats not sustainable for a team of our size. TCR says £100k cars and thats achievable even with a sequential box and toys (just), BOP used to level them up makes a lot more sense than changing boost every 20 minutes and is more transparent so whilst I;m not a fan of BOP its a best of bad choice. Teams can make money from building cars as the market is larger, we had the same plan with BGTC but the fact is that theres no way to make money from building cars as in effect you arent, you're building shells and bodywork for kit parts to be added and when those kit parts are £170k its kinda hard to make anything on it.


The first GTC Cup car will start testing next week, we are ust awaiting the wheels to turn up from Dynamics, then we are ready to go.

[RED55]

Thorney is good example of how NGTC regs doubtful be used in other countries even though FIA approved.

TCR is probably going to gather momentum in 2016 , I think the BTCC is too expense
Top teams are requiring near 500k driver to cover a full season in BTCC with damage , anyone paying 200k less is going to have really hard season.

I hope Thorney get into TCR it a shame he couldnt continue BTCC but it a money pit before you even turn wheel to race.

TCR is trying to make cut that at least.

[Bramzel]

Great stuff John, thanks for the insight!

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by RED55

Thorney is good example of how NGTC regs doubtful be used in other countries even though FIA approved.

TCR is probably going to gather momentum in 2016 , I think the BTCC is too expense
Top teams are requiring near 500k driver to cover a full season in BTCC with damage , anyone paying 200k less is going to have really hard season.

I hope Thorney get into TCR it a shame he couldnt continue BTCC but it a money pit before you even turn wheel to race.

TCR is trying to make cut that at least.

Yep, I'm fully behind TCR even if we dont get a chance to be involved in building Opels for it. I'm bitterly disappointed by NGTC, it works in terms of grids but in terms of cost control its a joke, not down the concept but simply down the the fact that TOCA did not control the suppliers and their costs. £30k for a loom and ECU with 5% uplifts PA and kit parts that when they dont work the teams have to buy new ones all over again is madness, we did 200 hours of labour just replacing control parts with replacement control parts when the first ones either didnt fit or just broke.


TCR numbers are broadly achievable but still need to be controlled, BoP works to some extent and should work with cars with similar configuration (2.0, FI, FWD) but get a manufacturer who wants to get all tricky on suspension design and it could all turn to tears. Same applies to gb work, we will likely run an Xtrac box, thats £17k plus another £10k of tooling which will put us over the £100k limit but it works. Aero as well, the OPC Cup looks nice enough but its not wind tunnel aero whereas the SEAT is. At the moment there are a lot of questions so we are just building ours for what we want to use it for, if that changes then great but racing at this level is 80% politics and frankly I'm not interested in that, if that means we dont get to play then so be it.

[Andrew Abbott]

Originally Posted by Thorney

There are still a lot of questions on the Astra for TCR:

1. Regs state 4 door cars (all the other cars stated are 4 door), the OPC/GTC model is a 2 door shell, I've asked if the GTC is ok but heard nothing back.

Having spoken with Marcello last week, you should be OK so long as the shape and dimensions of the car are not significantly different.

For the Astra, the two door body shape is actually quite different, so I'm not sure if that's permitted or not. But since the Astra was specifically mentioned, I think you should be fine.

Are you really struggling to get in contact?

[iceman-1987]

[QUOTE=Thorney;3493252]There are still a lot of questions on the Astra for TCR:

1. Regs state 4 door cars (all the other cars stated are 4 door), the OPC/GTC model is a 2 door shell, I've asked if the GTC is ok but heard nothing back.


do u know that exist also opel astra 4 doors? it's just the sportive model of the astra OPC that is sold in 2 doors version.

opel can use without problem an astra 4 doors and develop it that one.

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by AndySpeed

Having spoken with Marcello last week, you should be OK so long as the shape and dimensions of the car are not significantly different.

For the Astra, the two door body shape is actually quite different, so I'm not sure if that's permitted or not. But since the Astra was specifically mentioned, I think you should be fine.

Are you really struggling to get in contact?

Oh yes, sent several emails to the website and even asked Neil Hudson of TCT to ask if they could call back and nothing. Ref the car, yes the gTc is a very different shell to the Astra j series (of which there is a new model coming now) hence it was an important question. However with 20 odd OPC cup cars with no-where to run next year it does make sense to include those in the series but not sure how that suits the others.

[S griffin]

Seems you are well prepared John. Would be good to see you in racing again.

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Seems you are well prepared John. Would be good to see you in racing again.

Thank you, but yes, we took 2 years out to plan this (and pay off BTCC) so we are being quite deliberate and as we are doing it in house there wont be any 'surprises' we can engineer ourselves out of!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Thorney

However with 20 odd OPC cup cars with no-where to run next year it does make sense to include those in the series but not sure how that suits the others.

So the Cup in VLN is discontinued? Or simply replaced by the next-gen Astra?

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

So the Cup in VLN is discontinued? Or simply replaced by the next-gen Astra?

Couldnt tell you tbh. Certainly it was a 3 year deal and this year is planned to be the last but the GTC shell is not due for revision until at least 2018 so theres life in it. The new Astra J is late this year so moving to the 4 door version makes sense to some extent, however Opel tend to use their OPC brand on competition and thats 2 door only. If they release a 4 door OPC version (makes sense, all the others do) then that would make sense, but I'm guessing.

[Speed-King]

I'm wondering if a TCR class in VLN would make sense... more and more of the field seems to be made up by one make cups, and the one of the few classes that are really bucking that trend are the GT3s in SP9. With TCR being modeled after GT3 and offering a selection of customer cars that are already bopped to be competitive with eachother, I could actually see this being a successful move - though of course GT3 has the added appeal of going for the overall victories and we don't know how endurance worthy the TCRs are going to be.

[GusGasfuss]

There is an article on Opel Motorsport website from early December 2014, where Opels Motorsport boss explains, that they will continue the OPC Cup in VLN/Nurburgring, 2015 would be the 3rd season.

He also said, that Opel evaluates different "ideas", with professional or semi-professional racing. For me, this sounds like TCR.
http://www.opel-motorsport.com/runds...g-fortfuehren/

[Adamcas87]

Might of been mentioned early on (sorry if it has) but has a TV deal been sorted? Maybe a Eurosport or motors TV??