History of a Lola T492 Sports 2000 chassis?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

Gerald at Lola Heritage confirms the Ted Toleman HU 6 purchase as a T 490 in Feb 1977.
There were 4 drivers under Toleman;
Ted himself, Alex Hawkridge, Rad Dougall and Derek Daly.

I have asked if this Ten Tenths thread will suffice as evidence that the car is HU 409/6 and I can get a chassis plate from Lola itself. It would be near impossible to get letters off people on the topic, so I live in hope.

Fingers crossed!

9th July 1977 - Oulton Park
In the Programme notes for the Sodastream Sports 2000 Championship round Ted Toleman is shown in 11th with 15pts.
In the entries for the race the car is listed as No 21 with Ted Toleman as the driver. On the day this was changed to Rad Dougall.
Now for the good news - I have two photos of the car from the race! they are on colour slide and will need scanning in. If your car does prove to be T490-HU6 then I can easily get prints for you. Oh and Rad won the race!!!!!

[911thillclimber]

Get scanning!
Thanks Steve. Oddly I bumped into the Sodastream bit on Google this morning but ran out of time before work started....
I need to call Tony D to tell him I found the engine mount holes.

Waiting on Lola now to see if they accept this 'proof'.

Graham.

[Clive Brown]

To use a legal analogy , what we seem to be looking at is the difference between the criteria of proof in civil and criminal cases . At the moment , I'd say that on the balance of probability , you have T490 / HU6 ; a circumstantial case can be made to that effect . Whether such provenance is yet beyond reasonable doubt , though , is more debatable ; Driftwood may well have a view on this .

Secondly , I was thinking about the Hart 420R last night , and seem to recall having seen one in a 2 litre Sports or F2 car mounted off brackets affixed to the sides of the block at the front of the engine . Look for cast-in bosses with a UNC thread with no obvious other use on a 420R .

I know the Minton brothers are Forum members ; how was the engine mounted in their Escort ? ' Normal ' Escorts have the Ford block supported approximately in the middle of the block on either side off the front suspension cross member , although Ralph Broad disliked this practice , and mounted the motors in his Group II cars off the chassis rails .

[911thillclimber]

Yes, I take your point on the legal aspects.
This will be down to Lola and how they view things. If i don't get a number re-issues it is not the end of the world. This is a great little racer and will make for a great-fun hillclimber with my favorite engine.

500BHP/ton and similar torque should keep me frightend and Steve's commentry at the Hillclimbs ammusing....

Graham.

[Dan Rear]

Looks pretty conclusive to my amateur eyes chaps!

That T490 is possibly the 'most famous' of all S2000s, given it was driven to victory twice that year, in one-offs, by drivers who went much further up the ladder, ie Daly and Dougall. OTOH I can't think of many other S2000 drivers who scored GP points, anyone else??? Most times that year it was shared by Toleman and Hawkridge. I wonder if it came out in subsequent years, I'm fairly sure these 2 didn't do anymore S2000 after that first year, they were busy taking the team into F2 then F1.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Looks pretty conclusive to my amateur eyes chaps!

That T490 is possibly the 'most famous' of all S2000s, given it was driven to victory twice that year, in one-offs, by drivers who went much further up the ladder, ie Daly and Dougall. OTOH I can't think of many other S2000 drivers who scored GP points, anyone else??? Most times that year it was shared by Toleman and Hawkridge. I wonder if it came out in subsequent years, I'm fairly sure these 2 didn't do anymore S2000 after that first year, they were busy taking the team into F2 then F1.

I only saw Sports 2000 the once in 1978 and there was no entry from the Toleman Group in the race.

[driftwood]

1 Lola and plate/recognition- be aware that you are not dealing with Lola from 20 years ago- it is now Martin Birrane who owns it so its name only with files plans etc to refer back to- i doubt if there are any employees left there now from the 70`s

2 i think the info you have is leading to beyond "reasonable doubt" what chassis number you have
3 TD will put pen to paper and moniker it to confirm the story race results and lola sales records will confirm names etc and you have race photos as wll of teh various cars-i am sure in time you willf ind AS report on the cars

the only problem comes if some other party pops up to say hey i have hu6 but for a £12k on the button S2000 its unlikely that anyone would steep so low unless you where a former part time bar steward who went onto become a rightous banker !!
OR part time photographer/commentator

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

500BHP/ton and similar torque

Shame on you , Graham ! Our researches have established that this is an ex-Humberstone car , and in keeping with the true spirit of Harry ( requiescat in pace ) , you should not cease from mental strife until you have sourced a proper 917-30 motor for your creation , and made appropriate improvements to upgrade its performance over and above the factory specification .

I would pay good money to see you take that up Val des Terres ....

[driftwood]

better still Mont Dore n france

[911thillclimber]

Give me a chance.

I used to race a 370 bhp Impreza up the hills (as Steve knows) that gave me brown underpants.(at times) but lovely in the wet!

I've hillclimbed my 911 with a simple 3.2 engine @ 210 bhp for 15 years and that has never scared me, just such a great car. (though slow)

so:
A little Lola 500Kg and 250 bhp.
I've never raced a real racing car so more dirty underwear...but i can be quite determined so I hope 2009 will be a learning year.

That engine can readily be coaxed to 300 bhp and even a 3.8 motor fitted easy = 330 bhp but, more importantly, skip loads of torque.

Now, 350 lbft in 500Kg is getting a bit racey.

The very first hillclimb I ever saw was in the Channel Isles at Val des Terres, what a fab place and spectacle. That was in 1980, so i gave up drag racing and building Hot Rods and bought..the 911 in '88.

I would love to do the Channel Isles hills, expensive but wonderful. The Championship I usually do (Leaders) goes to both Islands, so just maybe...

I do hope you are all right about the provenance. I don't know who does the Heritage at Lola but I hope it is Gerald as he knows all about the old days there.
I guess I could ask on their web site if anyone has HU 6, but not everyone spends too much time on the internet!

Yet more rivits have arrived today, a funny purple colour, so lots to do.
The March (repaired) upright has passed its crack tests today too, so I hope to get some progress over Xmas.

Must admit that this part of old car ownership has bought a lot of interest to having such a car. Never done this kind of thing before.

Its been great, but it's not over yet!

[bob k.]

While everyone is still thinking T490 and researching the 1977, 78 era perhaps you can help me to determine ownership of HU4. It was used by Divina in 1977 and then, so the story goes, bought by John (pancho) Webb in 1978. He sold it into Canada in 1983. Does any one have proof or evidence of Mr Webb owning the car in those years? I was told that a 1978 Autosport had picture of car and driver with National Fuels sponsorship and a Smurf for good measure. Any old programs? Any for sale ads late 82 or early 83? Any contact info for Mr Webb himself?

After tracing Grahams history, my request sounds simple.

Any and all help most appreciated.

bob k.

[911thillclimber]

Good luck Bob!
It is clear that there are some very very keen guys on this forum who can be a massive help because they were actually there!

Graham.

[911thillclimber]

All details now with Lola Cars for verification and I hope acceptance.
It is not over till the Fat Lady sings, so nearly there, but....

I am so pleased to show this: Taken off the Lola Heritage site.

Owner's Name Chassis No. Type Year Built Current Location

Robert Kozakowski HU4 T490/2 1977 Canada
SAUERBIER BEHEER Incorp. HU5 T490 1977 Holland

Graham Loakes HU6 T490 1977 UK

Arnaud Perrin HU8 T490 1977 France
Harry Chapman H T490 1977 UK
Gernot Stoitzner H T490 1977 Austria

[driftwood]

Divina Galicia was also sponsored by Kelly girl ( temp secretary agency) in Sports car racing
Now John Webb was the instigator of S2000 racing and i would imagine he bought 2 or 3 cars
If JW is around he would be a very old geezer his business partner was Jackie Epstien and they owned Brands hatch thruogh the 70`s until they sold it to John Foulston in the early 1980`s


now that Graham has his lola sorted out what the firk are we going to do now to amuse ourselves?
maybe build a b19

[Dan Rear]

Just to throw a Tony Dickinson spanner in the works... Steve W returned my 1981 Pace/K Tits Motor Sport Directory last night.

In the drivers potted history section, in the Tony Dickinson write-up (by Mike Kettlewood who knew his stuff), it described his first Skoda as the original Jessop/Meek car as we surmised. However, and this was written in 1980/81 remember, it then says his SECOND Skoda was based on a Lola T490/492 chassis. No mention at all of what we're calling his middle car, the T290 derived one. Hmmmm...

Oh, and we couldn't think of any other S2000 drivers who'd raced successfully in GPs other than Daly. We ruled out Divi, Desire, Wilds on that basis, did Tiff N have any S2000 drives???

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

OR part time photographer/commentator

Oi! I resemble that remark!

Once Lola have responded, hopefully acknowledging the provenance of the car, I'll get round to scanning the Rad Dougall photos!

[Clive Brown]

John 'Pancho' Webb is not the same as the John Webb who ran Brands for Grovewood Securities and Motor Circuit Developments . The latter is I believe still alive and living abroad , although as Driftwood says , he is now a very old man .

'Pancho' Webb derived his nickname from his Zapata-style moustache , IIRC .

[bob k.]

This is where my car's history got fuzzy, having two John Webbs involved. Divina tells me that even though the car was delivered to her, she did not own it. It was owned by either John Webb or more likely by one of the divisions of Brands Hatch. Chassis HU1 was delivered to John Webb MCD. Any verification of change in ownership to "Pancho" Webb?

So HU1 and 4 were likely owned by MCD

Any information on who , if anyone, drove the Kelly Girl car #13 when Divi was running the TS19. The car was maintained and run by the Whiting brothers
bob k.

[driftwood]

mcd IS MOTOR CIRCUIT DEVELOPEMENTS AKA BRANDS HATCH JOHN WEBB
PANCHO WEBB IS USA AND NOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH JOHN WEBB (known here as Webby!)

The Webbs ran BH for 20 odd years for Grovewood securities before they actually bought the track and instigated S2000 and 3 other categories for Brans hatch circuits to run
F First F Forward and Multisports all cars using Ford motors built by Van diemen

Kelly Girl was a Divina sponsor for 2 or 3 seasons The Whiting brothers are Charlie Whiting the FIA official starter ( was Brabham mechanic) and his racer brother Nickwho raced an Escort at Brands for many years and had across the road from BH a race car parts accessory shop
for Bob k info (not the rest of us) NW met an untimely death in suspicious circumstances akin to bugsy malone

[bob k.]

I thought that John"Pancho" Webb was a car dealer? from the UK. who ran S2000 in 1977 to at least 1980, possibly longer. The only thing he had to do with webby was to buy a 490 from himin 1978, or so I believe and am trying to confirm. He(Pancho) may have offered the 490 as a rental car from 1980 .

ringing any bells?

I did know about the NW story

[Clive Brown]

When Divina Galica ( no great driver , but a far less superficial person than most of the drivers promoted by Webby's Charm School ) was not available to drive the Kelly Girl Lola Sports 2000 , the alternative of choice was one Juliette Slaughter , who first appeared in the guise of Juliette Scott-Gunn , married Prod Saloon Racer Andy Slaughter , and when the music stopped , changed partners and became Juliette Brindley as the result of a liaison with one-time Prod Saloon Camaro racer , and subsequently Lola Sports 2000 driver John Brindley .

The contemporary record suggests that wherever Juliette's talents lay , it was not as a race car driver .

[driftwood]

i can hear the feminist groups getting the noose ready for the great banker!

How do you define a great driver
1 he is a man?
2 does 1 take the stereotypical male view and say " she aint bad for a girl"

Divina was British down hill skier and in the lympic squad also had at 1 time the world down hillspeed record
however i will stand 5 paces behind clive to catch him fall after she wallops him for the comments made

[Clive Brown]

Divina was a good club-level driver ; no more , no less . She became a Webb's Wonder partly because , as The Drifter so perceptively notes , she was a girlie , and partly because of her feats as a downhill skier , although ski-ing uphill is a bit of a b*****d , or so I'm told .

I remember Barbara Cowell ( later Thompson ) as a pretty mean Minirod and later Mini Se7en driver , but the best woman driver I ever saw in terms of outright competitiveness was Deirdre Garlick , the other half of West Country ( Dorset ? ) Special Saloon Mini racer Reg Ward . She was blindingly fast in Reg's 850cc 8-port headed lowline ( Maguire ? ) Mini ; I'm sure she would have been more than man enough for at least some of those who later drove 850 cc Maguire Special Saloon Imps .... ate 'em up , and spat 'em out , as Frank Sinatra said .

[driftwood]

Desire wilson?
Danica patrick?
Leanne Tander?
Suzy Stoddart?
Sarah Fisher?
Vanicka Ickx? they have all race top line single seaters very well and some have driven fast saloon GT LMP cars

[Clive Brown]

Of your list , I guess Desire Wilson ( another Webb's Wonder ) stands out as the best . It is difficult to dissociate the career progress of women racing grivers from their inevitable novelty value , and it's interesting just how Sarah Fisher's career has stagnated of late . I strongly suspect that the same might happen to Danica Patrick , despite her weight advantage and the fact that she has a ride in a front-running team . Plus , I look forward to the day when she gets what she says she really wants , to be treated just like one of the guys , and after another tirade , someone smacks her in the mouth !

The various women ( Paula Cook , Fiona Leggate ) who have had BTCC drives in recent years seem pretty mediocre , whilst Suzie Stoddart and Vanina Ickx have hardly set the DTM world alight .

I'm curious you didn't mention Katharine Legge , who does seem to get the job done without a great deal of fuss .

Now of course , if you're talking about drivers who are big girls' blouses , there's ....