Andretti F1 - 2025

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard C

No doubt there is more to this story.

So... regarding FOM offering up a meeting with Andretti in which Andretti was a no-show. Andretti stated today they didn't know about the meeting. That the email was in their Junk mail folder. That if they had known they would have attended.

https://racer.com/2024/02/02/andrett...ents-over-bid/

Assuming this is all true, this is classic amateur hour business partner crap when you send an email, get no response, and don't follow up to see if they received it or not.

Edit: AP reporter on Twitter was the source for the spam folder detail. And stated that "Michael Andretti has already been on record as Stefano Domenicali was not taking his calls or texts." The fix was in for Andretti.


Richard

[broadrun96]

Love the we don't know if they understand the scope of the work required bit. Really, cause you have a history of having only FULLY funded and prepared teams entering the series. Why is it every time F1 management opens their pie hole stupid falls out, as referenced above, WHERE IS THEIR PR DEPARTMENT??? Someone needs to tell them no response is needed, you're just making it worse not better.

[Adam43]

I thought the reference to a meeting not happening is particularly crass. Very school playground.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

So... regarding FOM offering up a meeting with Andretti in which Andretti was a no-show. Andretti stated today they didn't know about the meeting. That the email was in their Junk mail folder. That if they had known they would have attended.

Assuming this is all true, this is classic amateur hour business partner crap when you send an email, get no response, and don't follow up to see if they received it or not.

Edit: AP reporter on Twitter was the source for the spam folder detail. And stated that "Michael Andretti has already been on record as Stefano Domenicali was not taking his calls or texts." The fix was in for Andretti.

I look at the junk/spam folder thing completely the other way round. Even emails from known email addresses can end up in those folders and it is basic business practice (Business 101?) to be regularly checking junk / spam folders - as basic as it can be. Andretti was the applicant and had far more to gain / lose than FOM so the onus really was on Andretti to be constantly vigilant and checking all forms of communication.

Your point about Michael Andretti claiming that Stefano Domenicali was not taking his calls or texts is interesting though - wonder what the timing was? If prior to FIA decision in October, kinda understandable as any FOM consideration was moot until FIA made its call, if after the FOM announcement, also understandable I guess but otherwise seems strange.

[Tourer]

This is the same article (from Autosport) that Richard linked from Racer above - as well as the "spam folder" email claim made by Andretti, there is also the claim that Andretti had switched to 2026 as its debut year "for many months now".

I find it really strange that Andretti hadn't advised FOM of that, as it is a pretty significant change, also strange that in this article with quotes from the team that came out just prior to the FOM announcement, Andretti is showing off a wind tunnel model and saying that it is ready to enter the 2025 season, provided that it knows early enough.

If Andretti REALLY had changed to 2026 as the intended entry date "for some months now" surely that would have been part of the article about wind tunnel testing and preparations from only a few hours before the FOM announcement?

Sorry, but it feels to me that Andretti is making it up as it goes along - the excuses being trotted out just don't seem to add up & feel more like fabrications.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I look at the junk/spam folder thing completely the other way round. Even emails from known email addresses can end up in those folders and it is basic business practice (Business 101?) to be regularly checking junk / spam folders - as basic as it can be. Andretti was the applicant and had far more to gain / lose than FOM so the onus really was on Andretti to be constantly vigilant and checking all forms of communication.

I have been vigilantly checking my spam folder for the offer for the second Mercedes seat ever since the Lewis move was announced. Nothing yet, but I am ever hopeful. However just this week I have received...

* Notification of $1.3M from the UN
* An inheritance from Indonesia for $12M
* A threat to release incriminating photos unless I send $1490 USD (a very specific amount!) in Bitcoins to someone.
* I won €650K in the "2024 Guinness Brewery Email Lottery"
* $1.3 from the Ivory Coast of Africa
* And two offers for medication related to little blue pills!

Seriously, you have a spam folder to look for "known missing items" vs having a spam filter just delete stuff (which I can do if configured). Being expected to check your spam folder on a regular basis pretty much negates the purpose of having it. It is there so that you DONT have to see those emails.

I expect FOM was likely quite excited when there was no response and made no attempt to follow up. Which is the professional thing to do. I am curious if FOM will respond.

Richard

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Tourer

This is the same article (from Autosport) that Richard linked from Racer above - as well as the "spam folder" email claim made by Andretti, there is also the claim that Andretti had switched to 2026 as its debut year "for many months now".

I find it really strange that Andretti hadn't advised FOM of that, as it is a pretty significant change, also strange that in this article with quotes from the team that came out just prior to the FOM announcement, Andretti is showing off a wind tunnel model and saying that it is ready to enter the 2025 season, provided that it knows early enough.

If Andretti REALLY had changed to 2026 as the intended entry date "for some months now" surely that would have been part of the article about wind tunnel testing and preparations from only a few hours before the FOM announcement?

Sorry, but it feels to me that Andretti is making it up as it goes along - the excuses being trotted out just don't seem to add up & feel more like fabrications.

Not sure what you mean by excuses, they've said the same thing over and over and we're targeting the new regs to join. F1 decided that oh no, we meant 2025 guys

Neither side looks like they have a clue but what about F1 makes anyone think they wouldn't change every bar they could and say, oh you thought we meant xxxxx, didn't you see our pigeon? Well we sent it to your office

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I have been vigilantly checking my spam folder for the offer for the second Mercedes seat ever since the Lewis move was announced. Nothing yet, but I am ever hopeful. However just this week I have received...

* Notification of $1.3M from the UN
* An inheritance from Indonesia for $12M
* A threat to release incriminating photos unless I send $1490 USD (a very specific amount!) in Bitcoins to someone.
* I won €650K in the "2024 Guinness Brewery Email Lottery"
* $1.3 from the Ivory Coast of Africa
* And two offers for medication related to little blue pills!

Seriously, you have a spam folder to look for "known missing items" vs having a spam filter just delete stuff (which I can do if configured). Being expected to check your spam folder on a regular basis pretty much negates the purpose of having it. It is there so that you DONT have to see those emails.

I expect FOM was likely quite excited when there was no response and made no attempt to follow up. Which is the professional thing to do. I am curious if FOM will respond.

With all those wins and inheritances, sounds like you'll be able to purchase a fun race car AND maybe a boat! Enjoy those.

How the spam folder is managed must vary from country to country by the sound of it. Here in Australia it has been standard business practice to check the spam folder and clear it at each client I've had and each company I've worked for going back at least a decade. Not unusual for emails from known sources to end up in a spam folder (particularly in Outlook) so it is basic business practice to check it at least weekly.

I honestly think that the onus was on Andretti when it came to checking communications, not on FOM to follow up, although I agree that FOM could have done that.

[Mike Harte]

About SPAM, I assume that like Google Mail (Gmail) which I use, most providers automatically filter emails that they consider to be SPAM. I would also assume that a business like Andretti would use an email client to receive their emails, and so they probably never or rarely go onto their providers website to check what may be in the SPAM folder.

I use an email client to "collect" mail from multiple accounts as would probably a business do, so I only need to go online to my Gmail account if I feel concerned that an email I am expecting hasn't arrived in my email client. So what Andretti says could well be true.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Not sure what you mean by excuses, they've said the same thing over and over and we're targeting the new regs to join. F1 decided that oh no, we meant 2025 guys

Neither side looks like they have a clue but what about F1 makes anyone think they wouldn't change every bar they could and say, oh you thought we meant xxxxx, didn't you see our pigeon? Well we sent it to your office

Except that Andretti, in the statement today, has said that its submission says 2025 entry and in the article hours before the FOM announcement the Andretti technical director said a number of times that as long as they had an answer early enough, they'd be ready for 2025 but if the answer came too late they'd have to go with 2026 instead.

For sure FOM clearly has the bar raised pretty high for acceptance but I think in general that's a good thing - nothing in the announcement indicates that the bar has been moved for Andretti.

[JHamilton]

I just don't think any of that matters. Whether there was a meeting or not, or who didn't return a phone call is irrelevant. I just wish the governing bodies would stop treating their fans like they're stupid. Just state "we cannot split the pie up anymore at this time but will reconsider for 2028 when our next agreement is negotiated." I don't like it but I can understand it. If it was my money, that's what I would say.

On the other hand, while I'm indifferent to Andretti Autosport, I'm shocked at the lukewarm response the GM commitment has had. I'm very biased as I've been American my whole life, my pops worked for GM 38 years, and I'm a big fan to this day (The Pontiac flavor is my favorite) but the announcement blew my mind! I've joked about it for decades and can't believe it is/was/might happen. It's huge! GM has alluded that their partnership will be with AA so who knows where they go from here.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

On the other hand, while I'm indifferent to Andretti Autosport, I'm shocked at the lukewarm response the GM commitment has had. I'm very biased as I've been American my whole life, my pops worked for GM 38 years, and I'm a big fan to this day (The Pontiac flavor is my favorite) but the announcement blew my mind! I've joked about it for decades and can't believe it is/was/might happen. It's huge! GM has alluded that their partnership will be with AA so who knows where they go from here.

I know what you mean, because GM getting into F1 is a big deal, no doubt about it. The FOM Statement gives more credence to GM than it does to Andretti and in particular, the last point in the statement shows respect to GM IMHO:

20. We would look differently on an application for the entry of a team into the 2028 Championship with a GM power unit, either as a GM works team or as a GM customer team designing all allowable components in-house. In this case there would be additional factors to consider in respect of the value that the Applicant would bring to the Championship, in particular in respect of bringing a prestigious new OEM to the sport as a PU supplier.

Despite the disappointment felt by many on the unsuccessful Andretti application, I can see some sense in waiting until 2028, when GM has said it'll have its power unit ready. Whilst both Andretti and GM would have a very large mountain to climb (far steeper, far higher and far more difficult than either has attempted in motor sport so far) they at least would be able to climb it together and plan stages over multiple years as a coordinated pair of partners - that would probably work better than Andretti starting with another power unit in 25 or 26, then again in 28. My thinking here of course assumes that the terms of the Concorde Agreement stay similar in terms of allowing up to two new teams to come in once approved.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

With all those wins and inheritances, sounds like you'll be able to purchase a fun race car AND maybe a boat! Enjoy those.

So that was just from one week. I am going to wait a few months and at this rate just buy an F1 team.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Despite the disappointment felt by many on the unsuccessful Andretti application, I can see some sense in waiting until 2028, when GM has said it'll have its power unit ready. Whilst both Andretti and GM would have a very large mountain to climb (far steeper, far higher and far more difficult than either has attempted in motor sport so far) they at least would be able to climb it together and plan stages over multiple years as a coordinated pair of partners - that would probably work better than Andretti starting with another power unit in 25 or 26, then again in 28. My thinking here of course assumes that the terms of the Concorde Agreement stay similar in terms of allowing up to two new teams to come in once approved.

So this is an older article. And the headline of the article ("General Motors says it will not enter Formula 1 without Andretti") might be stretching things a bit but it might be close to the truth...

https://www.racefans.net/2023/11/09/...hout-andretti/

I think there is going to be a catch-22 here. I suspect GM really only wants to enter the sport if they can pick the right partner. And I just don't see them doing that with a legacy F1 team that is euro-centric.

I am not an expert on this, but I think GM sells very little in Europe and Europe is not a large focus for them. I think their foreign market focus is China and other parts of Asia (Korea) and I suspect that participation in F1 would not be a great marketing tool for them in those markets. So I think the marketing aspect of F1 is probably targeting the domestic market. And a partner such as Andretti would be the perfect match given the domestic name recognition.

With Andretti being told "no" for now and "maybe 2028" (and "maybe 2028" really sounds like "no" given the rough treatment given to Andretti) for 2028, I think there is effectively zero chance that GM is going to start and develop an F1 power unit program unless they have partnered with a team that has an entry. And they are unlikely to go it alone and enter as "GM F1". This is somewhat no different than what VAG did. VAG had a line in the sand for their entry. They sat on the sidelines to ensure the new power unit spec was to their liking and then once it was they agreed to enter F1. So for VAG it was the specific power unit technical specs and cost cap system that they wanted. I suspect for GM it is an American team that will work for domestic marketing. Haas is likely off the table given they are (apparently) not for sale and also deeply embedded with Ferrari. It might be Andretti or nothing. I think the other potential big US name in racing that they would go along with would be Roger Penske. But I expect Penske has little interest in F1 at the moment?

I think unless there is some breakthrough (such as a successful legal challenge against FOM or a team comes up for sale and Andretti is able to purchase) I don't see Andretti or GM entering F1 within the scope of the next Concorde agreement (I assume that is starting in 2028). I expect the revised "buy in" amount for 2028+ will be so large that short of a large manufacturing footing the bill, nobody will be able to afford to join the sport "as a new entry". And like I said, I suspect GM has no interest in footing that future large bill.

It really is possible that F1 really blew it in the American market. The interest is here, but given ticket prices for US races they might be squeezing a bit too hard without really trying to help their case. Time will tell how this all plays out for new fans. I think those outside of the US probably don't know how dumb the FOM response sounds to US ears.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The FOM Statement gives more credence to GM than it does to Andretti and in particular, the last point in the statement shows respect to GM IMHO

One last thought. The response from FOM comes across to me like this...

You and your wife show up at the entrance to a nightclub. The door guy looks you both up and down. He tells you that you are ugly and a nobody, but your wife, she is hot, they would love to let her in. In fact some of the regulars in line are propositioning her while thumbing their noses at you.

Is your wife supposed to feel all of this is a complement (respect) or is she going to be insulted by how they treated you?

Completely and absolutely tone deaf on the part of FOM. Maybe so tone deaf that they aren't and don't really give a flip about GM.

Richard

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Richard C

One last thought. The response from FOM comes across to me like this...

You and your wife show up at the entrance to a nightclub. The door guy looks you both up and down. He tells you that you are ugly and a nobody, but your wife, she is hot, they would love to let her in. In fact some of the regulars in line are propositioning her while thumbing their noses at you.

Is your wife supposed to feel all of this is a complement (respect) or is she going to be insulted by how they treated you?

Completely and absolutely tone deaf on the part of FOM. Maybe so tone deaf that they aren't and don't really give a flip about GM.

Richard

I agree with everything you are saying in both these posts.And people outside the US do get what FOM has done.
It is obvious to everyone that the maybe 2028 is a meaningless thing designed to soften the impact of the rejection.If 2028 was a go they needed to give them a spot with the proviso of certain conditions which are publicly released now or by the end of this year.
What is really annoying about the attitude of the teams is that they think it is something they’ve done which has caused the massive increase in popularity and income.They have contributed nothing extra.The new Golden Age is the result of Netflix and the once in a generation 2021 Championship battle.
A lot of that may be transitory.All reality TV shows lose popularity as the formula will always repeat itself.Combine that with those newbies getting bored as Max wins 20 races a year and what’s going on now might be a fleeting thing.I notice that here in Australia ticket sales outside race day are moving a lot slower for 2024 than they did for 2023.
Although it would obviously in FOM’s interest for Andretti or any extra team to be on the grid they felt they had to act as the existing teams wanted.Then at somewhere in the process I’m sure that they decided it would be a good idea to raise the middle finger to the FIA President to show him who was really in charge.
The refusal had nothing to do with what longer term benefit Andretti and GM would bring to F1.Instead it was the teams protecting their next few financial statements and FOM wanting to bring the FIA to heel.
(Hopefully nothing too incendiary here.When I made the point about the team bodies acting like a cartel on Joe Saward’s blog he suggested it was defamation and the teams would take legal action against me.)

[Mike Harte]

For what it's worth, as soon as I read about the rejection my immediate thought was that they did it because FOM and the teams, or maybe just the teams, didn't want Andretti admitted until a new Concorde agreement was in force which would raise the sanctioning fee way beyond the current $200 million.

I think currently they are considering that the fee should be around the $600 million mark.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think those outside of the US probably don't know how dumb the FOM response sounds to US ears.

You could well be right on that - the US is its own market with its own sensibilities and values, its own way of presenting sport to the national market and that way is really quite different to other parts of the world.

Originally Posted by Richard C

You and your wife show up at the entrance to a nightclub. The door guy looks you both up and down. He tells you that you are ugly and a nobody, but your wife, she is hot, they would love to let her in. In fact some of the regulars in line are propositioning her while thumbing their noses at you.

Is your wife supposed to feel all of this is a complement (respect) or is she going to be insulted by how they treated you?

Completely and absolutely tone deaf on the part of FOM. Maybe so tone deaf that they aren't and don't really give a flip about GM.

Richard

The situation is slightly different to this hypothetical though - it was flagged from the very start that to be accepted, any applicant would need to rate highly enough and bring enough value to be allowed in. Now, 3 other applications fell at the first hurdle as they didn't rate highly enough (using the nightclub hypothetical, maybe they wore purple jackets & picked their nose whilst not bringing a hot wife).

The FIA decided that Andretti rated highly enough, even if it was (as you put it) ugly & a nobody but it appears that FOM needed the hot wife to walk in with Andretti so that enough value was added to make it through the door. The fact that Andretti knew it was being rated was at least part of the reason for bringing the hot wife (GM) along, to gain entry.

Let's note that no-one is suggesting that the hot wife should walk in alone and find someone else - FOM has simply said that it expects that entry will be provided once Andretti turns up with the hot wife (GM) which doesn't happen until 2028.

Not sure of the best way forward for Andretti from here but if I was them, I reckon I'd resubmit the application but with the start date changed to 2028, with confirmation that would be with a GM engine & I'd do so asap. Don't know how that would fit with a new Concorde Agreement due to be in effect before then but it MIGHT be at least partially successful & might provide some certainty.

[Sandgroper]

What a Shame.

End if story.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The situation is slightly different to this hypothetical though - it was flagged from the very start that to be accepted, any applicant would need to rate highly enough and bring enough value to be allowed in. Now, 3 other applications fell at the first hurdle as they didn't rate highly enough (using the nightclub hypothetical, maybe they wore purple jackets & picked their nose whilst not bringing a hot wife).

I appreciate your perspective, but I think the bulk of my point was missed by you.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I appreciate your perspective, but I think the bulk of my point was missed by you.

Richard

No, I got your point completely but don't see the situation in quite the same way as you (maybe because I'm not from USA?).

[Adam43]

Location checks out.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Will GM want to wait until 2028?

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Will GM want to wait until 2028?

Or will GM be willing to spend all that money on power unit development without a 100% locked in guarantee of an Andretti entry?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Or will GM be willing to spend all that money on power unit development without a 100% locked in guarantee of an Andretti entry?

There is that as well.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Will GM want to wait until 2028?

GM was already waiting until 2028 - that is when it has said it would have its own Power Unit ready to be used, or at least Andretti has said that is when it would start using the GM Power Unit. That is why FOM said in its statement that a 2028 start would be viewed very differently.

Originally Posted by Alan52

Or will GM be willing to spend all that money on power unit development without a 100% locked in guarantee of an Andretti entry?

Don't know - but that's why I suggested a few posts ago that if I was Andretti, I'd re-submit the application with a 2028 start date, using GM Power Unit. If Andretti then gets a "yes" (subject to any fees changing with the new Concorde Agreement due before then) then both Andretti and GM have certainty to work with, plan for that date and invest.